What do you want in a local range

[A & P]

We've explored opening a range and I have a lot of ideas for what might work. But when opening a new business, it's important to find something to differentiate yourself. So I thought it'd be great research to poll the TGT members to see what you like and dislike in your current ranges, or what you'd like to see (besides everything free of course).

Are local ranges too expensive for range fees? too expensive for guns/ammo?
Too restrictive? no draw, no rapid fire, etc. range nazis (realizing that many shooters are VERY novice shooters)
Too few lanes?
Too short of hours?
Too short?
pricing policies? (charge per gun vs per person vs per hour)

More competitions?
more lessons?
Gun rentals?
Membership packages or privileges?

hosting TGT events?

We looked at indoor and outdoor. The problem with outdoor would be the land requirement. And it's never long enough. We could have 1000yd range and people would want a mile. I like outdoor, personally, but it would be either or: either outdoor that is a 30 minute drive, or indoor and in town. Problem with indoor is the expense.

of course, all of this is just spitballing until we see if our rights will be usurped by executive order in January.

 

[Shotgun Jeremy]

500 yds, allow tannerite, allow .50 cal, allow steel core, allow full auto, have an area indoors that can be reserved for events

Price should be $10-$15 per person for all day, unlimited gun pass

Outdoor ranges seem more laid back

Most of us don't mind a drive for a good range.
Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

 

[Shotgun Jeremy]

Maintain tall berms, steel targets as well as paper, allow vehicles to pull up pretty close to the lines on a first come-first served basis

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

 

[A & P]

500 yds, allow tannerite, allow .50 cal, allow steel core, allow full auto, have an area indoors that can be reserved for events

Price should be $10-$15 per person for all day, unlimited gun pass

Outdoor ranges seem more laid back

Most of us don't mind a drive for a good range.
Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

A couple of years ago I went by Knob Creek Range (Guntucky). Turns out it was the weekend after the annual machine gun shoot. It's essentially cut into the side of a mountain and even then they had constant problems with neighbors claiming 50BMG rounds were skipping over the mountain or whatever. As you know, they do EVERYTHING there...but it can be pricey if it's something unusual. I didn't shoot. Just went in to check it out. When it's not rocking, it's just a basic, very basic range and the insides of the store are VERY basic...but wall to wall guns. HUGE selection. Everyone working looked like wet, whipped dogs apparently from the week before. I forget what day it was but it was mid afternoon and if there were 60 shooting lanes, there probably weren't 5 people tops during the hour I was checking it out. $10 x 5 shooters doesn't even pay half a day salary for one worker. If I remember correctly, the range goes out to about 300-400 yards.

Problem with outdoor ranges like what you describe is that land costs money. Improvements cost money. I never understood the "per gun" charge at some ranges. I like the idea of long range steel and a few pistol style 50 yard 180 degree berms. And if you are going to allow full auto, then you better have a VERY long safe zone past berms and whatnot. More acres means farther out to travel to get that kind of land.

Having said all that, the private range I shoot at now allows all of that and goes out to 300 yards. 50s, full auto, tannerite (up to 1/2lb...neighbors complain otherwise). steel and paper, tactical options, etc. Small, but versatile range. Reserved for LE/Mil and instructors for the most part.

As for "open to the public" ranges, as with most business models, it's got to be low cost/high volume or high cost/low volume. I could see offering a "$10/hr...but we're not watching the clock" policy. So as long as nobody is waiting to shoot, you can keep shooting. But if you have 20 lanes and 20 people show up at 9am and decide to camp out for the day with their arsenal...that's $200 max revenue in a day. That doesn't even pay the taxes on the land and a single RO salary. So from a business point of view, it has to cover cost, cover a margin above cost for improvements and maintenance, and then pay the owner a profit for the risk and opportunity cost of his investment. A lot of people bring their own ammo (reloads or "internet bargain" stuff) so the range isn't making much on that. If they allow your own targets, they're not making anything on that. So from a business perspective, if the only revenue is mostly the range fees, it's got to cover ALL of the expenses of the range. And that's the trick. A single employee at the range means the first 10 shooters of every day just go to pay the employee.

Seems like the two versions of the outdoor range idea are a low cost public range (but it's surely going to have hourly rates or something of the sort) or a private, country club style that is top notch, long range, all the amenities...and an appropriate initiation fee and monthly dues with unlimited access.

Oh, and as for tannerite, it'd have to be heavily regulated like in the amount and distance. I've seen videos of guys shooting it and of course it's too much and too close and shrapnel goes flying past them and hits the camera. Crazy. Now mix that with commercial liability insurance. Uh, ya. That's tough.

I like the close parking. I love shooting steel and paper. Tall berms are good but expensive. Building a long range with proper topography is probably easier but then that limits your choices in where to put it, like KCR in the side of the mountain.

I see a lot of guys liking to go to SGA and other ranges and, for me, that's just so limiting. No multi-target engagements. No "rapid-fire". No drawing from a holster. No moving and shooting. Basically you can't practice any skill sets. Of course, they have to maximize revenue in a limited space. How could you rent a whole pistol bay for one guy who wants to do tactical engagements? Would he pay $60/hr to block out 6 lanes of a single bay? Can't have our cake and eat it too, apparently.

 

[Dawico]

I prefer outdoor ranges but if I had a store and wanted a range it would probably be an indoor range just for location.

100 yards would be nice but may be much for an indoor range.

Charge per hour but be reasonable, $10 or so.

Gun rental, cover the normal hot sellers and the oddball stuff. Everybody wants to try a 500 Magnum or Desert Eagle. Sell rental ammo by the round for the crazy expensive guns. Somebody might pay $20 to rent a 500 with a full cylinder and range time, but probably won't want to buy a whole box of ammo for it.

I don't go to many ranges so I am just throwing some ideas out there.

 

[Moonpie]

Flat fee. Charging by the gun is piracy. I can see a time limit(say a couple of hours) so neckbeards can't camp all day on the range blocking other customers.

Probably my biggest peeve with most all outdoor ranges these days is being forced to park and haul all my gear thru some choke point then out onto the range.
Arrange it so a guy can park his vehicle right behind the firing benches! The old school ranges did this.
It sucks trying to haul a bunch of gear from the truck to the line.
It really sucks if you have to make more than one trip. You dare not go off and leave expensive items unattended.

For gods sake put level concrete at the firing benches.
It sucks to be standing in a mud hole. Table all askew in a mud hole. Trying to pick up your brass in a mud hole.

Have SOLID firing tables. Make them out of steel. Movable but heavy. Wobbly old loose wooden tables suck. Same for the seats.
Have shelves or tables on the pistol range where a guy can lay out his equipment in front of him. It sucks to set your $1500 1911 on a rotten 2x4 and hope it doesn't fall off. Into a mud hole.

Restrooms that do not look or smell like biological warfare testing laboratories.
This is the real secret for Buc-ee's success. Clean restrooms for the wimmins makes them willing to return.

Allow late evening shooting.
Have lights that illuminate the target. Maybe buried in the ground, before the backstop, angled up.
Its hot but after the sun sets its lets up.
Plus folks are off work/date night/etc. Maybe just on Friday and Saturday.
Closing at 5pm sucks.

 

[Bozz10mm]

Probably my biggest peeve with most all outdoor ranges these days is being forced to park and haul all my gear thru some choke point then out onto the range.
Arrange it so a guy can park his vehicle right behind the firing benches! The old school ranges did this.
It sucks trying to haul a bunch of gear from the truck to the line.
It really sucks if you have to make more than one trip. You dare not go off and leave expensive items unattended.

This describes Astro's to a tee. Plus, when you switch from the rifle range to the pistol range, you have to go back to the office and check in. So you have to haul all your gear again.

Also, if the baffles are so low that you can not use a sand bag on the bench or even a scope on a rifle, well WTF?

 

[Mongo]

Outdoor
Allow all NFA including full auto
steel
real benches w/o the stupidity sky blocker
car spot right behind bench
tactical range bays for rent
rentable spotting scopes

Some of the above does not apply to me any longer but I would think it would be popular

I would pay $20 per hour for a bench, not by gun and not special higher fees for those with NFA, not all of use with expensive guns are rich.

 

[baboon]

What I'd want in an outdoor range will never happen until I have my own.

 

[Mowingmaniac 24/7]

Many of the requests I see here mean the range would have to be well away from nearby residents or the complaints by them would be endless.

I'm a member of a private range. It's typical in that no, no automatic gun fire, no .50 cal., no tannerite, shooting starting absolutely no sooner than 8:00 a.m. and ends promptly at 5 p.m. Why? Partially because yes, we're surrounded by nearby residents.

A friend has a house at least a 1/2 mile from the range. Throughout the course of any day, he a hears a non-stop barrage of gunfire. He complains that he can't enjoy being outside of his house. He no longer barbecues... He doesn't lodge any complaints as he too is a shooter, but man, listening to daily non-stop gunfire he says, is like living in a war zone.

So, with all ya'lls wish list, bear in mind, the range will have to be well away from residential homes or you'll be harassed by annoyed neighbors. I can just hear their complaints when machine guns are ripping away, the blast of .50 cal rifles with tannerite going boom!

 

[ZX9RCAM]

If an indoor range, be sure to have an area for pistol shooters (rim fire rifles ok, too), separate from rifle shooters.
My ears can't handle the large calibers indoors.

 

[Moonpie]

Many of the requests I see here mean the range would have to be well away from nearby residents or the complaints by them would be endless.

I'm a member of a private range. It's typical in that no, no automatic gun fire, no .50 cal., no tannerite, shooting starting absolutely no sooner than 8:00 a.m. and ends promptly at 5 p.m. Why? Partially because yes, we're surrounded by nearby residents.

A friend has a house at least a 1/2 mile from the range. Throughout the course of any day, he a hears a non-stop barrage of gunfire. He complains that he can't enjoy being outside of his house. He no longer barbecues... He doesn't lodge any complaints as he too is a shooter, but man, listening to daily non-stop gunfire he says, is like living in a war zone.

So, with all ya'lls wish list, bear in mind, the range will have to be well away from residential homes or you'll be harassed by annoyed neighbors. I can just hear their complaints when machine guns are ripping away, the blast of .50 cal rifles with tannerite going boom!

Then don't buy a house near a gun range. Not exactly rocket surgery. Like the dolts that buy a house under an airport runway approach and bitch about aircraft noise.

 

[zincwarrior]

If an indoor range, be sure to have an area for pistol shooters (rim fire rifles ok, too), separate from rifle shooters.
My ears can't handle the large calibers indoors.

Indeed.
*Clean. Clean place. Clean restrooms with functional equipment and lighting.
*Well lit. I have been to multiple indoor ranges in Texas and California. About half the time they are quite dark on the actual range. Shady Oaks in Cedar Park is an example of how to do it right. The range area is well lit.
*Ventilation and air conditioning. This is a must. If I am shelling out big bucks by the area this place needs to be ventilated with good temperature control. If its sweltering people won't come back.
*Watch the yayhoos. ROs need to be watching out for the Yayhoos who pull crap like sweeping everyone while cooking their action or other stupid shit. I had one guy behind the line and behind my wife pull out his pistol and rack it right at her and I told him if he did it again I'd immediately shoot him in the face-the RO booted them from the place.
*Have snacks/drinks available-high margin additional sales!
*I agree with others. I am fine charging by the hour on an indoor range per shooter, but charging per gun-no way. I'd immediately walk out and bad mouth it all over the internet.
*Be polite-you know common courtesy and don't act like the damn Unabomber.
*Most important, don't let low class scum like me be a member.

 

[grasshopperglock]

Solid bench tables that don't move, wobble, or shake. Decent chairs. Ear muffs with a radio, rentals or sale.

 

[Texan-in-Training]

If an indoor range, be sure to have an area for pistol shooters (rim fire rifles ok, too), separate from rifle shooters.
My ears can't handle the large calibers indoors.

I really don't have anything to add other than a couple of dedicated "sighting in" lanes with extended side walls would be nice. Nothing like trying to get everything settled and having a magnum with a muzzle brake light off next to you. One of several reasons I don't shoot at Red's anymore

 

[Savage20]

I'm not picky. Just give me a place to sit and shoot, preferably out to 300 yards. All I ask is that I don't get bothered by a dumb ass range officer.

 

[Shotgun Jeremy]

A couple of years ago I went by Knob Creek Range (Guntucky). Turns out it was the weekend after the annual machine gun shoot. It's essentially cut into the side of a mountain and even then they had constant problems with neighbors claiming 50BMG rounds were skipping over the mountain or whatever. As you know, they do EVERYTHING there...but it can be pricey if it's something unusual. I didn't shoot. Just went in to check it out. When it's not rocking, it's just a basic, very basic range and the insides of the store are VERY basic...but wall to wall guns. HUGE selection. Everyone working looked like wet, whipped dogs apparently from the week before. I forget what day it was but it was mid afternoon and if there were 60 shooting lanes, there probably weren't 5 people tops during the hour I was checking it out. $10 x 5 shooters doesn't even pay half a day salary for one worker. If I remember correctly, the range goes out to about 300-400 yards.

I'm surprised to hear this about the range. I figured it would have at least moderate business throughout the year just based on it's status with the machine gun shoot.

Problem with outdoor ranges like what you describe is that land costs money. Improvements cost money. I never understood the "per gun" charge at some ranges. I like the idea of long range steel and a few pistol style 50 yard 180 degree berms. And if you are going to allow full auto, then you better have a VERY long safe zone past berms and whatnot. More acres means farther out to travel to get that kind of land.

When it comes to the 300 yard,I think between the occasional tannerite (at $10/lb, it's not an everyday thing at most ranges), and the occasional shooter who quals up to 300 yards you'll see moderate use at the 300 yard lane. You could probably even just hang steel and have a table that allows room for two shooters using basically the same lane. But either way, this is just tossing around ideas of what I hear the most about when we're looking for our big TGT meet locations.

Having said all that, the private range I shoot at now allows all of that and goes out to 300 yards. 50s, full auto, tannerite (up to 1/2lb...neighbors complain otherwise). steel and paper, tactical options, etc. Small, but versatile range. Reserved for LE/Mil and instructors for the most part.

As for "open to the public" ranges, as with most business models, it's got to be low cost/high volume or high cost/low volume. I could see offering a "$10/hr...but we're not watching the clock" policy. So as long as nobody is waiting to shoot, you can keep shooting. But if you have 20 lanes and 20 people show up at 9am and decide to camp out for the day with their arsenal...that's $200 max revenue in a day. That doesn't even pay the taxes on the land and a single RO salary. So from a business point of view, it has to cover cost, cover a margin above cost for improvements and maintenance, and then pay the owner a profit for the risk and opportunity cost of his investment. A lot of people bring their own ammo (reloads or "internet bargain" stuff) so the range isn't making much on that. If they allow your own targets, they're not making anything on that. So from a business perspective, if the only revenue is mostly the range fees, it's got to cover ALL of the expenses of the range. And that's the trick. A single employee at the range means the first 10 shooters of every day just go to pay the employee.
If you're having people pay to reserve lanes, that may be the case. Just charge an entree fee and then let people work it out themselves. I can't remember a single time I've gone to an open range like that and come across another shooter who just refused to work with someone else on the lanes. Hell, some of the nicest people I've met have been on the shooting lanes. I say this for a few reasons. One reason being it will make life easier on you. You can potentially pull in more money and you're not having to worry about tracking lanes. Secondly, more of your range regulars tend to not like a bunch of rules. They just want a safe place that they can go shoot what they want. There's a range out here that just opened up. They charge similar to what you're talking about and they're already building a negative reputation mostly because of the fees.

Another thing I've noticed with ranges in general is the more you offer for the shooter to be able to do, and the more freedom they have (within reason of course), the more attendance climbs. Hell, open up as a couple bays for pistol, shotgun, and short range rifle and then let people watch you build your range. That will create a buzz guaranteed. Use the small, basic range to get the publics interest and bring them in, then use a good pay system and non-obtrusive rules/staff to get them happy with your business model, and then generate buzz by not only saying there's more of this goodness to come, but let them watch it in progress. Maybe don't actually work on the new berms off to the side while shooters are active, but if people hear there's more and as they come back, they see there is indeed more being built up that will start spreading fast.

Seems like the two versions of the outdoor range idea are a low cost public range (but it's surely going to have hourly rates or something of the sort) or a private, country club style that is top notch, long range, all the amenities...and an appropriate initiation fee and monthly dues with unlimited access.

Here's another idea you can do. Outdoor range that's run off entry fees, and a building onsite that does CHL classes, ammo sales, gun rentals(gun sales at a range don't seem to make too much money), a gunsmith onsite, team up with a holster specialist, and hold quarterly public events. The gun smith can either pay rent or a percentage of all sales (rent will probably be easier), the holster specialist can pay a percentage of sales, you can charge CHL instructors around $60-$80 to rent the classroom for a day,and you can charge CHL instructors a discount on range fees for the class so that even the ones who hold classes at applebees will still be encouraged to come to you for quals. Then you can reach out not just to TGT but all state-wide forums and invite them to have range meetups at your range. Do that with Texas Law Shield for their classes, and any other gun related groups you can think of. Again - just tossing around ideas.

Oh, and as for tannerite, it'd have to be heavily regulated like in the amount and distance. I've seen videos of guys shooting it and of course it's too much and too close and shrapnel goes flying past them and hits the camera. Crazy. Now mix that with commercial liability insurance. Uh, ya. That's tough.

You're spot on about parts going flying with tannerite. TGT has blown up our fair share of cars to know this first hand. Set it so you can't blow up objects unless you have a professional with you (explosives licensed person for example). Then, do some research into this and train one of your employees about distances, where you want the explosives in relation to the object (here's a hint - put the tannerite between the shooter and the object to blow parts towards the berm) and then rent out that employee hourly to oversee people who want to blow up objects. If they want to shoot tannerite and don't have a professional with them, then they can only do 1 lb per 100 yards as per the instructions on the bottle.

I like the close parking. I love shooting steel and paper. Tall berms are good but expensive. Building a long range with proper topography is probably easier but then that limits your choices in where to put it, like KCR in the side of the mountain.

There's no doubting that. Tall berms combined with insurance is a LOT. That's just one more reason it may be better to open while small and grow from there. That may be better to call around and talk with some range owners around the state and get their opinion.

I see a lot of guys liking to go to SGA and other ranges and, for me, that's just so limiting. No multi-target engagements. No "rapid-fire". No drawing from a holster. No moving and shooting. Basically you can't practice any skill sets. Of course, they have to maximize revenue in a limited space. How could you rent a whole pistol bay for one guy who wants to do tactical engagements? Would he pay $60/hr to block out 6 lanes of a single bay? Can't have our cake and eat it too, apparently.

Nothing says one person has to rent out one bay. People tend to like having more options for their buck. Just do general admittance and the rest is up to the shooters to work out among themselves.

I put replies in bold. Will you be coming out to our "TGT Family Reunion" the first weekend of Oct? That range would be perfect for you to check out and see some of what I'm talking about.

 

[Shotgun Jeremy]

For gods sake put level concrete at the firing benches.
It sucks to be standing in a mud hole. Table all askew in a mud hole. Trying to pick up your brass in a mud hole.

Have shelves or tables on the pistol range where a guy can lay out his equipment in front of him. It sucks to set your $1500 1911 on a rotten 2x4 and hope it doesn't fall off.

I've seen a few ranges with some great potential just ruin it with crappy tables. Nothing sets an impression on a shooter like not giving them a quality work area while shooting. Sure, concrete slabs and concrete tables are nice, but I've also seen ranges do wood tables on dirt and they just build a damn good wood table/bench with an overhang above it. If you're going to go cheap, at least don't cut out quality.

Allow late evening shooting.
Have lights that illuminate the target. Maybe buried in the ground, before the backstop, angled up.
Its hot but after the sun sets its lets up.
Plus folks are off work/date night/etc. Maybe just on Friday and Saturday.
Closing at 5pm sucks.

How many ranges do you see that allow night fire shooting?? Even if it's only one day a week or a couple days a month - this would be awesome!

I just wanted to add on what Moonpie said.

 

[benenglish]

...if the baffles are so low that you can not use a sand bag on the bench or even a scope on a rifle, well WTF?

Outdoor...w/o the stupidity sky blocker

Baffled ranges can be nice.

View from atop a benchrest at the 200 meter rifle range, which is at the bottom of the aerial picture.

Aerial view of entire range complex.

Hellacious nice restaurant on site, too.

If somebody built something like this in Texas and made it available for unlimited use at $500 (maybe $1000) a year, I'd probably move there.

 

[Shotgun Jeremy]

Damn, a restaurant onsite? Genious

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk