What is considered GOOD accuracy in a .22LR rifle?

[Daily]

I have a savage MkII that my wife bought me for Valentine's Day a few years ago. I love plinking with this rifle. It came with a Bushnell 3-9 on it, I added butler creek caps and a off-brand bi-pod. I can get this rifle to about 1.5MOA @ 100 yards at an indoor range, using specific ammunition. Fiocchi seems to have the best groups...But what is considered GOOD vs GREAT accuracy?

 

[itchin]

That would be great for a savage mkii. Pics or it.didn't happen. Jk.

 

[Dawico]

Not too long ago 1.5 MOA was great accuracy for a center fire hunting rifle. It is very good for the money you have into it.

A few tips incase you didn't know. People going for tiny groups with rimfires sort their rounds by total weight and rim thickness. Not much else you can do with rimfire ammo to accurize it.

 

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

Here are some targets, including a few from a MkII BTVS:

I just can't remember what this was from, the MkII or the Romanian.

and the back...

I was just practicing; this was a time when ammo was plentiful and I was shooting 1k-4k rounds per month. I was trying to make myself into a human ransom rest to figure out what ammo was the best and what I could do with it.

I'm almost afraid to go out again. I did knock a bird off the barn at about 60 yards before the blizzard hit as a huge flock decided to descend upon the farm, but I'm chalking that up to luck. I've been rationing what's left of my CCI Subsonics. One shot and one bird; the rest took off. (Bird poop can cause disease in kids, and I got me one of them critters.)

I hope this helps.

Regards,

Josh

 

[Daily]

wow Josh!

Do you have any pictures or more info of your set up? I have the accutrigger on my Savage, I have been thinking about getting a barrel for it, I like the scope, but it has a standard crosshair reticle, so I may switch out those two things, maybe a stock if I can find a good deal on one.

 

[Lame Bear]

One thing to bear in mind when shooting to determine accuarcy, is the word repeatable. In other words, you need to shoot, probably 50+ 5 shot groups groups with a particular ammo. Also always try to duplicate conditions. Everybody gets a sub .500 group at 50 yards with mediocre bulk ammo, on rare occasion, even myself. The key word is repeatable. Wishing you good shooting, and lots of fun.

 

[Lame Bear]

One thing to bear in mind when shooting to determine accuarcy, is the word repeatable. In other words, you need to shoot, probably 50+ 5 shot groups with a particular ammo. Also always try to duplicate conditions. Everybody gets a sub .500 group at 50 yards with mediocre bulk ammo, on rare occasion, even myself. The key word is repeatable. Wishing you good shooting, and lots of fun.

 

[Lame Bear]

Sorry bout duplication. Tried to cancel one. Wasn't smart enough.

 

[AustinN4]

Sorry bout duplication. Tried to cancel one. Wasn't smart enough.

Had to laugh, I can relate!
I know 5 shots seems to be the standard, but try for repeatable groups of more rounds, say 10, not 5. Yes, it is harder.

 

[Lame Bear]

Thanks AustinN4. A little support always appreciated. And your right about 10 shot groups vs 5 shot. Twice as hard. Shooting 10 shot groups is called bravery. Wishing you good shooting.

 

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

They're nothing overly spectacular. One was a surplus M69 Romanian Trainer that I should not have gotten rid of, and the other is a Savage MkII BTVS:

The Romanian Trainer.

The Savage MkII

Now, that Savage was a disappointment. It came crooked in the stock and it took a lot of fixing. The sear went and sloped within the first couple thousand rounds and began dropping to the striker to the Accutrigger blade.

After a talk with a very rude woman in the Savage Rimfire Division and finding out they would not ship me a new sear but rather wanted me to send the rifle back (after a two month wait to get the thing in the first place!), I just decided to experiment. What I ended up with was a set trigger: http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/rimfire/54618-rimfire-trigger-slipping-make-set.html#post875840 I had to harden the sear as well. Hell, it wasn't even matching the sides: You know the line from when they cast things? Well, the mold was not aligned.

This is the last Savage I'll ever own. Period. Too much bullcrap on their end.

I wouldn't mind having an Accutrigger setup again, but I'd have to have the sear and trigger available to me, and I've not found anything aftermarket for the MkII setup. I was hoping Rifle Basix might have one by now.

Once modified/fixed though, it began acting right and I could settle down and shoot excellent groups.

That one group I shot above that I don't remember what I shot it with? I do remember shooting something like 20 rounds there.

Mostly, though, it's not the rifle so much as it is the shooter. Remember, I was single and spent most of my time either working or behind the trigger. Even a mediocre .22 rifle is probably capable of close to MOA if you can hold rock still.

Remember, breath in, breath out, breath in, breath out, front sight, squeeze, follow, breath.

If you're shooting at NRP, you need to send the bullet within two seconds. After that, your eyesight begins to degrade and you need to breathe and try again.

Also, look at green stuff. Green soothes tired eyes.

Regards,

Josh

 

[Lame Bear]

AustinN4. I knew when you brought up 10 shot groups, something would dig in, and take root. Thought about it so long that I came to a devil of a conclusion. 10 shot groups are not twice as difficult to execute well, they're probably 3 or 4 times as hard. That conclusion is all well and good, the rub is that now I won't get any mental rest till I go next week and start shooting a whole herd of 10 shot groups. Needless to say I probably can't stand the mental strain of shooting over 2 or 3 per trip to the range. I hope you feel smug all weekend, while I'm thinking about how to execute this challenge. Thanks man.

 

[Daily]

So, what are we thinking? 10 shot groups at 100 yards, 1.5moa is GOOD? Or GREAT?!

 

[Josh Smith]

So, what are we thinking? 10 shot groups at 100 yards, 1.5moa is GOOD? Or GREAT?!

Hello,

Depends on the conditions.

I would say that on an indoor range with still air and match ammo, you should be putting them through the same hole to be great.

Outside, with wind, the same shooter/rifle/ammo combo might open up to 1.5 inches.

I guess I'm at the point where it's not simply putting holes in paper that constitute what's good/great/whatever, but rather the ability to do this under a variety of conditions.

I've laid baking in the sun with humidity so high I could see the trail to the target. I've also shot when it was so cold that ignition was effected in CCI ammo! This latter was below zero a number of years back.

In those extremes, I'm happy with an inch at 50 yards.

On the other hand, in totally calm, perfect conditions, I'm not happy unless I've kept it in a quarter inch at 100 yards. Again, perfect conditions for that last and I'm not sure I've ever achieved it without fliers.

Regards,

Josh

 

[Lame Bear]

me too

Hello,

They're nothing overly spectacular. One was a surplus M69 Romanian Trainer that I should not have gotten rid of, and the other is a Savage MkII BTVS:

The Romanian Trainer.

The Savage MkII

Now, that Savage was a disappointment. It came crooked in the stock and it took a lot of fixing. The sear went and sloped within the first couple thousand rounds and began dropping to the striker to the Accutrigger blade.

After a talk with a very rude woman in the Savage Rimfire Division and finding out they would not ship me a new sear but rather wanted me to send the rifle back (after a two month wait to get the thing in the first place!), I just decided to experiment. What I ended up with was a set trigger: http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/rimfire/54618-rimfire-trigger-slipping-make-set.html#post875840 I had to harden the sear as well. Hell, it wasn't even matching the sides: You know the line from when they cast things? Well, the mold was not aligned.

This is the last Savage I'll ever own. Period. Too much bullcrap on their end.

I wouldn't mind having an Accutrigger setup again, but I'd have to have the sear and trigger available to me, and I've not found anything aftermarket for the MkII setup. I was hoping Rifle Basix might have one by now.

Once modified/fixed though, it began acting right and I could settle down and shoot excellent groups.

That one group I shot above that I don't remember what I shot it with? I do remember shooting something like 20 rounds there.

Mostly, though, it's not the rifle so much as it is the shooter. Remember, I was single and spent most of my time either working or behind the trigger. Even a mediocre .22 rifle is probably capable of close to MOA if you can hold rock still.

Remember, breath in, breath out, breath in, breath out, front sight, squeeze, follow, breath.

If you're shooting at NRP, you need to send the bullet within two seconds. After that, your eyesight begins to degrade and you need to breathe and try again.

Also, look at green stuff. Green soothes tired eyes.

Regards,

Josh

Josh, I comiserate with you bout the Savage. My wife told me to pick out the rifle I really wanted for my 65th birthday in 2110. I wanted a CZ trainer, for about 340.00. After lots of recomendation, I ordered a Savage MKII classic for 460.00. I'v e shot thousands of rounds of ammo since it was new. I used many brands of ammo. That gun is a 1" gun at 50 yds. A great 5 shot group is betwen 11/16 and 1 3/16 @ 50 meters. It has a 24" buggy whip barrel. I finally got a CZ Trainer. It shootz inside every group I ever shot with the Savage. The Savage is a dedicated safe queen. I have to still shoot it occasionaly, because my wife always helps load the rifles. I'm with you on " no more Savages". I tride every trick in the book, and some not in the book including Limb Saver.Even tying the barrel down. Wishing you good shooting.

 

[Josh Smith]

Man, that's the thing. The Savage is plenty precise; it's just the shortcuts on mine that make it not what it could be.

1. Improper heat treating of the sear, and no aftermarket replacement and Savage acting as if I were bothering them.

2. Action/barrel canted in the stock, contacting said stock. This had to be corrected before the barrel would float.

3. Very cheap action screws.

4. Very thin stamped parts throughout.

5. Magazines fall apart and initially did not have proper spring tension.

6. I had to pull the barrel and take a burr off the barrel's extractor relief cut so it would pull the bloody casings from the chamber!

7. The wood stock is cheap. I mean, it looks nice, but you get down to it it's almost pulpwood. They laminated something together to make it; still not sure what wood they used.

With an aftermarket trigger and sear I could start turning this into an awesome rifle. The barrel is certainly done well -- Savage must not make them in-house.

Being a lefty, my options have always been limited. I bought the Savage because it was available in left-handed and I'd heard good things about it.

Well, come to find out it's not all that great.

I've found standards have changed. My carry pistol is a blued steel 1911 of my own build. The rifles I deal with are usually pre-WWI (1892 is the earliest I own) through WWII.

They are all real wood and steel. Even the worst milsurps I've seen are built better than the Savage, and most other modern rifles under $800 or so.

Hell, the Finnish M39 rifles (and a few other nations' respective rifles) had sights that compensated for spin-drift!

That kind of detail to attention just isn't seen today.

I had a Marlin bolt action when I was a teenager. I loved it, and I'd really enjoy having a lefty version. Unfortunately, they're not made.

I do like the CZs. I've not seen a lefty CZ, but I know they're made. I try to by American, but it seems America is turning out crap these days. Even the 10/22 has been compromised to the point I'd have to drop a custom barrel into it before expecting it to shoot better than 5MOA.

I flat don't know what's going on. Making parts cheaply is one thing; making cheap parts and hoping folks won't notice is another thing entirely.

Sorry for the rant. I guess it comes from sitting at a work table all day hand-fitting each item I make, and then seeing some big company do a crap job and get the same kind of money I'd ask if I'd hand-fitted the product they're making.

It comes down to taking pride in ones' work, I think, and it's sorely lacking at Savage.

CZ gets my business next time.

Regards,

Josh

 

[RetArmySgt]

Here is my Savage MkII and these are all 10 round groups at 100yd. This were taken at an outdoor range on a windless day.

Edit to add: Ammo was Remington Subsonics.

 

[Josh Smith]

View attachment 26144 View attachment 26145 View attachment 26146 View attachment 26147 View attachment 26148
Here is my Savage MkII and these are all 10 round groups at 100yd. This were taken at an outdoor range on a windless day.

Edit to add: Ammo was Remington Subsonics.

See, this is repeatability. This is what I've been trying to do. I have a problem shooting at paper; if it's a squirrel's ear I hit it. I don't understand.

The rifle likes Remington subsonic too; it's just harder lead than the CCI and doesn't readily expand. It does an excellent job on critters, but they run several feet. CCI anchors them.

Right now, if I could find Remington Subsonic, I'd be happy.

Regards,

Josh

 

[RetArmySgt]

See, this is repeatability. This is what I've been trying to do. I have a problem shooting at paper; if it's a squirrel's ear I hit it. I don't understand.

The rifle likes Remington subsonic too; it's just harder lead than the CCI and doesn't readily expand. It does an excellent job on critters, but they run several feet. CCI anchors them.

Right now, if I could find Remington Subsonic, I'd be happy.

Regards,

Josh

Local small shop got some in and posted a pic of their ammo delivery to facebook a couple of months ago I saw that Remington subsonics were in the lot. I called and the price was $8 per box of 100 ($1 more than pre scare) so I told him to pull all 20 boxes for me and drove over and picked it up.

 

[Lame Bear]

No disrespect Sarge, 4 groups is not repeatability.