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What is the binary standard for optics?

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  • hullhullhull

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    The threshold for when an optic becomes acceptable or unacceptable is the question.

    I’ve spent some time reading through this forum and have tried to understand what the minimum threshold standard is for an optic with no luck.

    Many optic characteristics get thrown around like:
    Weight
    Clarity
    Daylight brightness
    Eyebox
    Exit pupil
    Objective size
    Light transmission
    Warranty
    Customer service
    Country of manufacture
    Reticle
    Price
    True 1x
    Retention of zero
    Turret tracking
    How discernible the turret clicks are

    Almost none of these have quantifiable standards. Exit pupil does. Weight is simple to evaluate, but how heavy is too heavy? Eyebox does a bit, but mostly the terms I read are “forgiving” or “tight”.

    Here is the question.

    Do you have an objective and quantifiable standard for an optic that it must meet/pass in order for you to consider purchasing it?

    If so, would you be so kind as to explain below?

    For instance, if clarity is one of your desired standards, how do you objectively evaluate that? How does a specific clarity standard make or break you ability to use the optic? Same question for any other characteristic that you choose. No need to name brands, I’m just looking for the user experience and what characteristics are essential and in what value.
    Military Camp
     

    Dawico

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    Not even going to lie, not having a lifetime unconditional warranty is a deal breaker for me. I consider that one feature that separates many good optics.

    If two optics both have similar features, reviews, and prices the manufacturer's faith in their product is a deciding factor.

    I'm not really talking about $200 optics though. More like $2k. Something that can be passed down many generations.

    While Nightforce, S&B, Theta, and others have good warranties and customer service they are out. This one feature narrows down the field greatly.

    After that I start digging into the features and go from there.

    I know this may not really answer the question for many but it does for me.
     

    dee

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    Minimum threshold ultimately depends on the user and their desired goal. Take weight for example that qualification will swing depending upon the goal. If I’m piecing together a mountain packing light weight gun a tank of a scope is definitely not going to be on the list. If I’m building a heavy gun then other features are more critical than the weight.

    For me personally it has to hold zero and track 100% all the time. After that I’m particular about glass because if you can’t always shoot in good conditions. I have had a few instances where shooting into shadows or towards the rising or setting sun where glass quality definitely stood out. I’m not super critical on eye box on a high power type scope because if the stock/chassis is setup the eye box doesn’t matter as much.

    Robustness is obviously a big factor because I use my stuff pretty hard so I need it to be reliable. My setups routinely get banged around and I don’t have time to worry about zero shift or if it is going to hurt something. After owning my S&B for several years now it looks a bit rough in places but it has never missed a lick.

    Turret feel has 100% kept me from trying a scope out because I was set on what I like. That being said I’m also one of the few out there that enjoy the feel of a MTC style turret. Something else to keep in mind is that some scopes the turret revolution direction can be different than the typical standard of ccw.
     

    hullhullhull

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    Not even going to lie, not having a lifetime unconditional warranty is a deal breaker for me. I consider that one feature that separates many good optics.

    If two optics both have similar features, reviews, and prices the manufacturer's faith in their product is a deciding factor.

    I'm not really talking about $200 optics though. More like $2k. Something that can be passed down many generations.

    While Nightforce, S&B, Theta, and others have good warranties and customer service they are out. This one feature narrows down the field greatly.

    After that I start digging into the features and go from there.

    I know this may not really answer the question for many but it does for me.
    That is a great answer and helpful.

    Your statement on price confuses me though. Is the lifetime warranty only valid in your perspective above a certain price point?
     

    toddnjoyce

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    Adding to what Dawico said, different types of optics work for different things.
    Me, an ACOG works just as well as an LPVO or a red dot or a red dot w/magnifier for certain applications.

    In other applications, none of those optics are optimum for the use.
     

    hullhullhull

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    Minimum threshold ultimately depends on the user and their desired goal. Take weight for example that qualification will swing depending upon the goal. If I’m piecing together a mountain packing light weight gun a tank of a scope is definitely not going to be on the list. If I’m building a heavy gun then other features are more critical than the weight.

    For me personally it has to hold zero and track 100% all the time. After that I’m particular about glass because if you can’t always shoot in good conditions. I have had a few instances where shooting into shadows or towards the rising or setting sun where glass quality definitely stood out. I’m not super critical on eye box on a high power type scope because if the stock/chassis is setup the eye box doesn’t matter as much.

    Robustness is obviously a big factor because I use my stuff pretty hard so I need it to be reliable. My setups routinely get banged around and I don’t have time to worry about zero shift or if it is going to hurt something. After owning my S&B for several years now it looks a bit rough in places but it has never missed a lick.

    Turret feel has 100% kept me from trying a scope out because I was set on what I like. That being said I’m also one of the few out there that enjoy the feel of a MTC style turret. Something else to keep in mind is that some scopes the turret revolution direction can be different than the typical standard of ccw.
    Excellent feedback. I’ll put the ball back in your hands.
    For a “mountain packing light weight gun” do you have a binary threshold for weight? 18 oz? 20 oz?

    Hold zero is a good one. Do you have a standard to evaluate that. Time? Normal handling vs say rough handling? Temperature or pressure changes?

    Tracking seems simple enough to evaluate, the scope adjustments either move the correct distance or they don’t, but what margin of error do you demand. And how do you evaluate that standard? Do you shoot or do you conduct a box test at a known distance?

    Robustness would seem to go back to holding zero.

    Turret feel sounds too subjective to be objectively evaluated. I understand what you are saying and I think it is a valid point, but I don’t know how to measure or compare that.

    Thank you.
     

    hullhullhull

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    Adding to what Dawico said, different types of optics work for different things.
    Me, an ACOG works just as well as an LPVO or a red dot or a red dot w/magnifier for certain applications.

    In other applications, none of those optics are optimum for the use.
    I can certainly appreciate your perspective. Sounds like you do not have objective threshold standards and instead purchase and use anything available.
     

    toddnjoyce

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    Excellent feedback. I’ll put the ball back in your hands.
    For a “mountain packing light weight gun” do you have a binary threshold for weight? 18 oz? 20 oz?

    Hold zero is a good one. Do you have a standard to evaluate that. Time? Normal handling vs say rough handling? Temperature or pressure changes?

    Tracking seems simple enough to evaluate, the scope adjustments either move the correct distance or they don’t, but what margin of error do you demand. And how do you evaluate that standard? Do you shoot or do you conduct a box test at a known distance?

    Robustness would seem to go back to holding zero.

    Turret feel sounds too subjective to be objectively evaluated. I understand what you are saying and I think it is a valid point, but I don’t know how to measure or compare that.

    Thank you.

    There are a lot of assumptions in the words you used here.

    The difference even 8oz makes on a 7lb gun is so negligible it’s laughable. Drop 10lbs off your body for a better return on investment.

    Generally for twisting turrets, you’re going to box test the optic. At different distances. If you’re just using a bdc reticle, same thing applies. Test is in all conditions at all distances you expect to shoot. Keep a perfomance diary, sometimes called dope.

    If each click is supposed to be .1mil or 1/4moa or whatever, that’s the standard. Either it does or doesn’t make the adjustment and when you return to zero, it’s either back to zero inside the click or not. But you probably have to buy the scope to learn if it tracks righteously or not. Or watch a bunch of reviews and slowly learn the optic and rifle are way more capable of precision and repeatability than you likely are.

    Turret feel, while subjective, is easy and important to evaluate. Some are mushy, some are very positive clicks. Again, if you’re twisting turrets for you shots, you’re adjusting based on number of clicks and it’s important to be able to accurately count those clicks.

    Ruggedness isn’t too objective…if you jostle/drop the gun or whatever, can it take the abuse.
     

    dee

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    Excellent feedback. I’ll put the ball back in your hands.
    For a “mountain packing light weight gun” do you have a binary threshold for weight? 18 oz? 20 oz?

    Hold zero is a good one. Do you have a standard to evaluate that. Time? Normal handling vs say rough handling? Temperature or pressure changes?

    Tracking seems simple enough to evaluate, the scope adjustments either move the correct distance or they don’t, but what margin of error do you demand. And how do you evaluate that standard? Do you shoot or do you conduct a box test at a known distance?

    Robustness would seem to go back to holding zero.

    Turret feel sounds too subjective to be objectively evaluated. I understand what you are saying and I think it is a valid point, but I don’t know how to measure or compare that.

    Thank you.

    1) For that close I would fall back to other features.

    2) Tracking gets validated out of the box via a box test and can or should be checked as time goes on. Use over time will tell you how tough something is. Now how tough that use is can determine the length of said time. I have seen scopes get dropped or worse and rock on just fine. The only time I have seen temp affect is a rare instance. I have a S&B that is part of their bad grease batch. It stems around grease off the internals breaking down under extreme heat. Mine rides on the truck console during summer so interior heat can be extremely high. I ended up with a couple specs on the lense but they are only seen when on low power as they are on the edge of the field of view. That is probably the only temp issue although I have seen a few scopes have “fog up “ issues in high humidity.

    Turret feel is very subjective which is why I consider it a moot point to an extent minus some features like locking turrets or the ability to cover the windage turret with a cap.
     

    zackmars

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    Durability and reputation.

    Clear glass and useable reticle.

    I don't care about cost that much. 1k-ish for an acog is acceptable, as is 2k-ish for a VCOG. Both the VCOG and ACOG are crystal clear and have durability and reputation in spades. But these are optics that go on guns i shoot a lot. They get beat on, dropped, smacked on barricades and door frames, etc.

    On the other end of the price range i have an older Tasco super sniper, now made by SWFA. I bought it used where it lived it's life on a .50bmg, and now it bounces around on guns that I want to see what it'll do with more magnification. They go for around 200-300, but they are simple, durability, and have a good reputation
     

    deemus

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    I think the starting point is scope manufacturer’s reputation. There are some I can’t afford. So they are out. That drops me into the level that I can afford. Then the question becomes, “what am I doing with it?”


    There’s some talk of turrets, but not every scope needs to have a turret. If it’s a long range gun, it definitely gets a turret type scope. My shorty AR has an Eotech holographic sight. My 20” AR has a scope, but no turrets on that scope.

    Clarity is something that only you can determine, but IMO is very important. When I was buying a tactical scope for a long range rifle, I went to Cabelas. They pulled 6-8 scopes out and I looked through them all.

    3 had bad clarity. Out. The others had sufficient clarity. Then 2 of them had reticles I didn’t care for. Came down to two scopes: Vortex and Nikon in the $1k range. Both were equal, but I liked the reticle on the Nikon better so I bought that one.

    I was later surprised to find that the Cabelas Covenant 7 line was superb. I bought a scope very close in quality to the Nikon Black 1000 in the Covenant line for $350.

    Reality is you will have to spend time with a few scopes in order to find your preferred scope.

    But generally brand name is a good place to start, then cull the too expensive brands out and go from there.
     

    leVieux

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    Not even going to lie, not having a lifetime unconditional warranty is a deal breaker for me. I consider that one feature that separates many good optics.

    If two optics both have similar features, reviews, and prices the manufacturer's faith in their product is a deciding factor.

    I'm not really talking about $200 optics though. More like $2k. Something that can be passed down many generations.

    While Nightforce, S&B, Theta, and others have good warranties and customer service they are out. This one feature narrows down the field greatly.

    After that I start digging into the features and go from there.

    I know this may not really answer the question for many but it does for me.
    >

    ZEISS Wetzlar

    Carl Zeiss AG Jena

    If you’e got the bucks, that’s all you need to know !

    leVieux
     

    Lonesome Dove

    A man of vision but with no mission.
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    Skip all the hoopla and check what others are using for an intended purposes. Figure your budget, look through some for yourself and make a choice. If you buy according to why, what and where you'll be terribly sorry.



    It's like 1911 vs Glock we all know the winner and why. Thank you John B.
     

    leVieux

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    Skip all the hoopla and check what others are using for an intended purposes. Figure your budget, look through some for yourself and make a choice. If you buy according to why, what and where you'll be terribly sorry.



    It's like 1911 vs Glock we all know the winner and why. Thank you John B.
    IDK that’s a really good example.
     

    hullhullhull

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    Durability and reputation.

    Clear glass and useable reticle.

    I don't care about cost that much. 1k-ish for an acog is acceptable, as is 2k-ish for a VCOG. Both the VCOG and ACOG are crystal clear and have durability and reputation in spades. But these are optics that go on guns i shoot a lot. They get beat on, dropped, smacked on barricades and door frames, etc.

    On the other end of the price range i have an older Tasco super sniper, now made by SWFA. I bought it used where it lived it's life on a .50bmg, and now it bounces around on guns that I want to see what it'll do with more magnification. They go for around 200-300, but they are simple, durability, and have a good reputation
    Thank you, good feedback.


    Durability seems difficult to evaluate, but I understand what you are getting at. Surviving recoil for a minimum number of rounds perhaps? A minimum number of cycles for moving parts perhaps?

    Reputation from the brand or for the specific optic? Seems too reliant on other people. How many people would need to endorse the optic for you to use it? How many to speak against it to avoid it?

    Clarity is one I’m very interested in. I hear clarity thrown around consistently, but never with a way to evaluate it for a minimum acceptable threshold. Glass quality in low light was mentioned earlier, which is a good starting point, but not quite the answer I was looking for. How do you determine if clarity is above the minimum you need?

    I understand your statement on price.

    Thank you.
     

    Vaquero

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    My criteria is the same as my rifles.
    Repeatability and dependability.

    Reticles and other things are just preferences.

    Right now my favorite scopes are SWFA and Primary Arms.
    From a few years back.
     

    hullhullhull

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    There are a lot of assumptions in the words you used here.

    The difference even 8oz makes on a 7lb gun is so negligible it’s laughable. Drop 10lbs off your body for a better return on investment.

    Generally for twisting turrets, you’re going to box test the optic. At different distances. If you’re just using a bdc reticle, same thing applies. Test is in all conditions at all distances you expect to shoot. Keep a perfomance diary, sometimes called dope.

    If each click is supposed to be .1mil or 1/4moa or whatever, that’s the standard. Either it does or doesn’t make the adjustment and when you return to zero, it’s either back to zero inside the click or not. But you probably have to buy the scope to learn if it tracks righteously or not. Or watch a bunch of reviews and slowly learn the optic and rifle are way more capable of precision and repeatability than you likely are.

    Turret feel, while subjective, is easy and important to evaluate. Some are mushy, some are very positive clicks. Again, if you’re twisting turrets for you shots, you’re adjusting based on number of clicks and it’s important to be able to accurately count those clicks.

    Ruggedness isn’t too objective…if you jostle/drop the gun or whatever, can it take the abuse.
    Yes I am making assumptions. However, assumptions help move the conversation toward truth. Moving on.

    The question isn’t about the negligible amount of weight saved on a 7 lb gun vs the 10 lbs I guess I need to loose? It is about where is the line in the sand for weight, if that is one of the specifications important to a consumer. For a “light weight mountain packing rifle” is the binary standard at 15 oz? 12 oz? How heavy would be too heavy and thereby eliminate a scope from consideration. 27 oz?

    I understand the use of turrets vs reticle, thank you for reiterating, however please try to remain on topic. We are discussing scope criteria, how to evaluate that criteria in objective terms. We are not yet discussing how to use the scope or features. On to the turret adjustment value and precision!

    Now we are getting somewhere, oddly you last statement is perhaps the most important. If the rifle and scope are likely more accurate than me, how precise/repeatable do the turret adjustments need to be. If one click is .1 MIL, what is the acceptable +\- for each click. How about for 10 clicks? 100 clicks? I’m not here to judge what you preference is, I’m just curious what the objective validation is for that choice. If you demand absolute precision and repeatability in all conditions for the turret adjustments, how do you evaluate that? A box test at 100 meters? 10 meters? How long does that level of turret precision last? This could be a good way to evaluate durability mentioned by others.

    For turret feel, it sounds like your minimum standard is to be able to count the clicks by feel. Is that correct? Again, I reiterate, I’m not judging your desired standard, just trying to learn.

    Finally we end with the ruggedness of an optic. Can it take the abuse means withstand damage, maintain features such as illumination, turret adjustments, and zero I assume? Is that something you test or rather is it something you expect, but don’t really have a good way to evaluate? How much jostling is enough for you to be satisfied the optic is “good”.

    You brought up excellent points, thank you.
     
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