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When police abandon a precinct building....

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  • toddnjoyce

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    I don't understand why deadly force is not used to stop rioters & criminals. If I didn't pay my taxes & refused to comply deadly force would be used on me. If I want to burn down a police station or rob a Target it's OK though?

    It’s really tough to understand being under siege by a mob until you are. The realization that there’s more of them than you and your team have bullets for is sobering.

    Mogadishu still remains a great example of how quickly and badly trying to fight a mob can turn.

    That’s not even including any politically-driven guidance that’s been provided by the Department or the the city.
     

    rotor

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    I am a Libertarian, you're barking up the wrong tree for me to support any sort of massive centralized body, especially the police forces in this country that continually kill people and get no knock warrant. Issues should be dealt with locally. If cops kill people and the police protect their own from any sort of retribution legal or otherwise they should be dealt with.

    Burn the precinct to the ground, show them they aren't invincible. That's a start in my book. Demilitarizing the police is the end goal. Most cops shouldn't have guns. Ask any range officer and they will tell you tons of ND are done by cops.


    END INTERNAL AFFAIRS in police departments ALL complaints of abuse should be handled through a CIVILIAN randomly selected group just like juries. Enough of this self regulating bullshit.

    It's not illegal to dismantle tyranny, it's encouraged.

    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
    So you believe that destruction of police precincts by rioters is acceptable and a way to reform the system. Realize that the cops don't care that the building burned down and it won't influence their behavior. They get the same paycheck, retirement plan, sick leave, insurance, etc. The only change is that they will work in another building. They may have to work even less now to get the same benefits. You don't change anything in the culture by burning down a police precincts but you do change a hell of a lot by burning down 169 private businesses after they are looted. And your excuse for not liking the looting was that it was a "bad look". What does that mean? If they had burned down a building and it "looked good" that would be okay?
     

    vmax

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    I don't understand why deadly force is not used to stop rioters & criminals. If I didn't pay my taxes & refused to comply deadly force would be used on me. If I want to burn down a police station or rob a Target it's OK though?
    Damn good point.
    The gov will shoot up the Branch Davidians and burn their house down, send black suburbans to your house and shoot your dog, but let some looters and rioters take over an entire city and not fire a shot.
     

    TX OMFS

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    It’s really tough to understand being under siege by a mob until you are. The realization that there’s more of them than you and your team have bullets for is sobering.

    Mogadishu still remains a great example of how quickly and badly trying to fight a mob can turn.

    That’s not even including any politically-driven guidance that’s been provided by the Department or the the city.
    So it's a tactical decision? That I can understand.

    Is the National Guard allowed to use deadly force?

    Protesting is fine. Arson and robbery is not OK.
     

    Maverick44

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    The officer who killed Floyd should hang, along with the DA who chose to protect him and the scum that is burning down that city. Indiscriminate rioting does not help a situation like this in any way, and it does not send a good message. All it says is that you're irrational and have no problem whatsoever with targeting and attacking people and business who have nothing to do with the issue you're angry out.

    As for police in general, to lump all of them together is simply idiotic and lazy. That might be easy to do since it doesn't require any real effort on one's part, but that's not a realistic view of them. Every single department has it's own culture. Some do unfortunately allow for abuse and corruption to occur. Some do have a habit of standing behind their officers when they are completely in the wrong, and will attempt to sweep issues like this one under the rug. Most don't. Most hate these kind of departments and won't work for them. These departments give the good officers who are out there busting their ass and putting their life on the line everyday a bad name. The least we can do for them is to learn the difference between them and the bad ones.
     

    toddnjoyce

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    So it's a tactical decision? That I can understand.
    Sometimes, it can be. Next time we have lunch, remind me to tell you about the Kabul traffic circle.

    ...Is the National Guard allowed to use deadly force?
    I would assume so; the first part of all ROE is the inherent right of self defense. It most likely has no semblance to the Local LE Rules for the Use if Force and/or Deadly Force. Also, the activated NG forces are going to be operating under Title 32 which is state military department authority and associated ROE.


    ...Protesting is fine. Arson and robbery is not OK.
    I agree.
     

    single stack

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    From a long time ago.
    I don't like criminals. I faced some a while ago.
    Day after day. They are full of hate and will try to intimidate you even when in irons.
    Being a convict sucks. It should. They do not learn.
    They are worse than animals and should be hated.
    Criminality is ingrained in some communities.
    Choose where you live carefully.
     

    SQLGeek

    Muh state lines
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    Then your attitude might change. The only thing keeping that from happening in your town is the thin blue line you so despise.

    This isn't always true.

    Where was LAPD, LASD, the National Guard or literally anyone from the government while the Roof Koreans defended their stores and livelihoods in 1992?

    That's not the first nor was it it the last time the police retreated.

    Edit: I see @Hoji beat me to it but the point remains.
     

    pronstar

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    This isn't always true.

    Where was LAPD, LASD, the National Guard or literally anyone from the government while the Roof Koreans defended their stores and livelihoods in 1992?

    That's not the first nor was it it the last time the police retreated.

    Edit: I see @Hoji beat me to it but the point remains.

    Living in LA during the riots, I can tell you exactly where they were.

    They drew a line in the sand around Beverly Hills and West Hollywood, and protected the wealthy from the masses.

    They literally allowed the rest of the city to burn.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
     

    avvidclif

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    This isn't always true.

    Where was LAPD, LASD, the National Guard or literally anyone from the government while the Roof Koreans defended their stores and livelihoods in 1992?

    That's not the first nor was it it the last time the police retreated.

    Edit: I see @Hoji beat me to it but the point remains.

    The police were TOLD to back down. The rooftop Koreans were doing the right thing and I applaud them. It's a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation. Don't protect lives and property and the populace is mad at you. Protect the property when told to back down and you don't have a job. And being totally politically incorrect did anyone notice the ethnicity of 90 % of the looter, same as LA and most of those situations. Explanations please. They are not there to protest, they are there to steal.
     

    SQLGeek

    Muh state lines
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    The police were TOLD to back down.

    So what? They weren't there to help and left the citizens to defend themselves. Doesn't matter why. They weren't there. So saying that the police is the only thing there to stop the rioting and protect businesses is not always a true statement. And the LA Riots is the perfect example of that.
     

    SQLGeek

    Muh state lines
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    Living in LA during the riots, I can tell you exactly where they were.

    They drew a line in the sand around Beverly Hills and West Hollywood, and protected the wealthy from the masses.

    They literally allowed the rest of the city to burn.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

    I know and it's a damned abomination but expect nothing else from Tinsel Town.
     

    avvidclif

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    So what? They weren't there to help and left the citizens to defend themselves. Doesn't matter why. They weren't there. So saying that the police is the only thing there to stop the rioting and protect businesses is not always a true statement. And the LA Riots is the perfect example of that.

    Reading comprehension 101: They were there to help and would have except the powers that be told them NO. Can you understand that? And the Koreans said Ok if that's the way it is we have this covered.
     

    jrbfishn

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    I don't understand why deadly force is not used to stop rioters & criminals. If I didn't pay my taxes & refused to comply deadly force would be used on me. If I want to burn down a police station or rob a Target it's OK though?
    Yeah, don't make sense does it.
    It’s really tough to understand being under siege by a mob until you are. The realization that there’s more of them than you and your team have bullets for is sobering.

    Mogadishu still remains a great example of how quickly and badly trying to fight a mob can turn.

    That’s not even including any politically-driven guidance that’s been provided by the Department or the the city.
    There is a be difference.
    In one place, we were interlopers fighting an armed resistance that was willing not only to kill but to die to get you.
    The looters are willing to destroy and steal, but how many are willing to die to do it? My guess, if people start dieing, they their behavior changes quick.
    That is not Mogadishu.

    Sent by an idjit coffeeholic from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
     

    SQLGeek

    Muh state lines
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    Sep 22, 2017
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    Richmond
    They were there to help and would have except the powers that be told them NO. Can you understand that?

    I comprehend perfectly. I refuted a claim you made. Did the police do anything? Did they protect Korean shops? No. Doesn't matter why because it's irrelevant.

    If I stand by and watch somebody get their ass kicked, am I helping them? No. Can you understand that yourself?

    And the Koreans said Ok if that's the way it is we have this covered.

    Exactly my point. They had to take care of themselves and they did, no thanks to the LAPD, City of Los Angeles, County of Los Angeles, State of California or anyone else.
     

    jrbfishn

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    Maybe I am looking at this wrong, but the police failed. Period. It doesn't matter when or where. It doesn't matter why. L.A., Minneapolis or Baltimore. They failed.
    Their job is to protect the citizens and property of those cities. I don't care who ordered them not to.
    If their "duty" is only to catch criminals and bring them to justice,,,,,they have more than ample opportunity and seem to be failing at that too.
    From my perspective, the modern police experiment is an abject failure and needs rethinking.

    Sent by an idjit coffeeholic from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
     

    Fishkiller

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    Not all police failed. There are bad cops. That Is no excuse for what is going on. to me go in and but a few knee caps, skulls etc. Take no quarter, arrest all looters. Let the folks march and do a "peaceful" protest, the cops that did this should be subject to a public execution if proven guilty.
     

    dapakattack

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    Apr 11, 2013
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    It is all part of the left's playbook. Let "protesters" protest by stealing and destroying. Hype a pandemic to destroy an economy. It is all part to condition people to give up their rights for a governmental promise of safety.
     

    toddnjoyce

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    Yeah, don't make sense does it.There is a be difference.
    In one place, we were interlopers fighting an armed resistance that was willing not only to kill but to die to get you.
    The looters are willing to destroy and steal, but how many are willing to die to do it? My guess, if people start dieing, they their behavior changes quick.
    That is not Mogadishu.

    While there is a different between Mogadishu and Minneapolis, LEOs still have to be willing to indiscriminately kill in the face of a potentially overwhelming enemy force when a riot/looting breaks out, because the concept of weapons free/fire fire zones don’t exist for LE.

    Even if those things did exist, the calculus for LEO is risk lawsuit/jail/job/life to defend someone else’s property or go home to momma and the kids while the insurance companies payout the losses and the OT blanket approvals add a nice little bump to the paycheck.

    The theory of shooting the first looters works fine (sometimes) in war; on main street USA, not so much.

    The table changes when your a private citizen defending your life and livelihood against an immediate threat.

    ...From my perspective, the modern police experiment is an abject failure and needs rethinking...

    With this I agree, but for different reasons.
     
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