Who to go to for NFA trust

[Hoji]

Silencer Shop?

 

[mp_tx]

At one time, I also thought I needed a high zoot, attorney approved trust. Thought their was some kind of magic the NFA attorneys could provide for their several hundred dollar trust.

So I paid for one. And the bullshit $75 charge every time I “modified” my trust with a new item. At some point, I read my trust, and then compared it to a couple buddies who had trusts through other well known trust providers (some of which have been recommended on this board). Surprise, surprise, it was the same verbiage and content.

There is nothing magic about an NFA trust. It is a document that lists items, a chain of custody, and an in case of death plan. Don’t believe the hype and the smoke screen—do it yourself and be comfortable with the contents.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[jordanmills]

At one time, I also thought I needed a high zoot, attorney approved trust. Thought their was some kind of magic the NFA attorneys could provide for their several hundred dollar trust.

So I paid for one. And the bullshit $75 charge every time I “modified” my trust with a new item. At some point, I read my trust, and then compared it to a couple buddies who had trusts through other well known trust providers (some of which have been recommended on this board). Surprise, surprise, it was the same verbiage and content.

There is nothing magic about an NFA trust. It is a document that lists items, a chain of custody, and an in case of death plan. Don’t believe the hype and the smoke screen—do it yourself and be comfortable with the contents.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

And in the unlikely event you run into trouble with it, are you going to find a lawyer ready to take your case right away?

 

[Bob=o]

You may want to talk with the FFL that you buy the item from, mine has one for a nominal price or free.

 

[davidindallas]

What happened to Sean Cody ?
He did ALL my NFA work.
Highly regarded in my book.

 

[Hoji]

What happened to Sean Cody ?
He did ALL my NFA work.
Highly regarded in my book.

Died last thanksgiving

 

[davidindallas]

Died last thanksgiving

Just left him a recorded message a week or two ago after reading this topic.
I had no idea.
He was my solid go to NFA guy.

 

[ScottDLS]

Since the CLEO sign off went away in 2016, I've never really understood the interest in trusts. I've been interested in NFA items since the early '80's and what is necessary. For the people that lived in a jurisdiction where their Sheriff or Police Chief or other official wouldn't sign off, the workaround was a corporation (this before LLC's even became a thing).

Having had a corporation (for other purposes) I can say it was cumbersome to maintain the formalities. The other advantage besides no CLEO sign off was the transfers were faster because they did not require photos and fingerprints and the FBI background check. LLC's are easier and cheaper to form and maintain in most states than corporations and so they became popular too. Technically one other advantage of legal entities was you could sell the entity to a buyer and the NFA items in it would become the property of the buyer with no transfer tax. No different in concept from a NFA FFL Dealer (in entity name) being bought by another company.

Anyway seems like some time in the 2000's 2010's somebody came up with the bright idea of a Trust instead of LLC/Corp. Trusts can be perpetual, don't typically require registration with the State and usually no formalities or yearly filing required to maintain them. SO what? Oh but what about my heirs....well NFA stuff passes to them per will or intestate succession without a transfer tax "on" a ATF Form 5. The other idea was all the trustees could technically "own" the item so they could take it out to shoot themselves. Same with corporate officers or LLC members etc.

Now after 2016 every trustee, member, officer is a "responsible person" who must send the photo/fingerprints in to ATF and pass the background check, so really what's the point of not just registering them in your own name? I bought two machine guns and a silencer in the early 2000's. My County Sheriff at the time would sign, so I registered them in my name. I don't need anyone else to use them without me present and my wife isn't interested in shooting them. My daughters told me which one they wanted if my wife and I die, so I put them in my will.

And now about the magic bulletproof super lawyer trusts that will single handedly protect you from the FBI/DHS/ATF scrutiny and allow you to win any case... I do a decent amount of real estate investing and rehabs and rentals on the side. I have a Texas Series LLC split into multiple liability buckets for each property, I created it myself with a book from Nolo press and had my attorney review it. I also have a testamentary trust in my will and a lot of the set up for all of these was done by my local lawyer who does real estate, investment, and estate law. He was interested in guns and NFA stuff when I talking to him about some real estate closings and we chatted for a bit.

Anyway, after the first couple thousand I spent with him on legal work for my LLC's, trust, leases, and closings, he said: "Hey, you don't need me to do this stuff anymore for $300/hr. Here's the MS Word Templates for all your previous work, you already do your own filings with the Secretary of State and County Clerk. When you come across something new come and see me".

My father, who has practiced law nationwide for 55 years, said... "All these transactions and the law surrounding them have been getting more standardized since I started practicing in 1966." A simple trust for holding title and registration of a NFA item is about as standard as a driver's license application. If you want to have a trust for some other reason, then get an estate lawyer to draw it up, but for me, I'll just skip it and do a form 4 in my own name. Unfortunately I can't afford machine gun prices anymore as I'm unwilling to mortgage my houses. Maybe I'll get another silencer or build a SBR. There's a cool HK MP5 style semi "pistol" in this month's NRA magazine. I might just buy one and "Form 1" it as a SBR to add a stock.

 

[smittyb]

Since the CLEO sign off went away in 2016, I've never really understood the interest in trusts. I've been interested in NFA items since the early '80's and what is necessary. For the people that lived in a jurisdiction where their Sheriff or Police Chief or other official wouldn't sign off, the workaround was a corporation (this before LLC's even became a thing).

Having had a corporation (for other purposes) I can say it was cumbersome to maintain the formalities. The other advantage besides no CLEO sign off was the transfers were faster because they did not require photos and fingerprints and the FBI background check. LLC's are easier and cheaper to form and maintain in most states than corporations and so they became popular too. Technically one other advantage of legal entities was you could sell the entity to a buyer and the NFA items in it would become the property of the buyer with no transfer tax. No different in concept from a NFA FFL Dealer (in entity name) being bought by another company.

Anyway seems like some time in the 2000's 2010's somebody came up with the bright idea of a Trust instead of LLC/Corp. Trusts can be perpetual, don't typically require registration with the State and usually no formalities or yearly filing required to maintain them. SO what? Oh but what about my heirs....well NFA stuff passes to them per will or intestate succession without a transfer tax "on" a ATF Form 5. The other idea was all the trustees could technically "own" the item so they could take it out to shoot themselves. Same with corporate officers or LLC members etc.

Now after 2016 every trustee, member, officer is a "responsible person" who must send the photo/fingerprints in to ATF and pass the background check, so really what's the point of not just registering them in your own name? I bought two machine guns and a silencer in the early 2000's. My County Sheriff at the time would sign, so I registered them in my name. I don't need anyone else to use them without me present and my wife isn't interested in shooting them. My daughters told me which one they wanted if my wife and I die, so I put them in my will.

And now about the magic bulletproof super lawyer trusts that will single handedly protect you from the FBI/DHS/ATF scrutiny and allow you to win any case... I do a decent amount of real estate investing and rehabs and rentals on the side. I have a Texas Series LLC split into multiple liability buckets for each property, I created it myself with a book from Nolo press and had my attorney review it. I also have a testamentary trust in my will and a lot of the set up for all of these was done by my local lawyer who does real estate, investment, and estate law. He was interested in guns and NFA stuff when I talking to him about some real estate closings and we chatted for a bit.

Anyway, after the first couple thousand I spent with him on legal work for my LLC's, trust, leases, and closings, he said: "Hey, you don't need me to do this stuff anymore for $300/hr. Here's the MS Word Templates for all your previous work, you already do your own filings with the Secretary of State and County Clerk. When you come across something new come and see me".

My father, who has practiced law nationwide for 55 years, said... "All these transactions and the law surrounding them have been getting more standardized since I started practicing in 1966." A simple trust for holding title and registration of a NFA item is about as standard as a driver's license application. If you want to have a trust for some other reason, then get an estate lawyer to draw it up, but for me, I'll just skip it and do a form 4 in my own name. Unfortunately I can't afford machine gun prices anymore as I'm unwilling to mortgage my houses. Maybe I'll get another silencer or build a SBR. There's a cool HK MP5 style semi "pistol" in this month's NRA magazine. I might just buy one and "Form 1" it as a SBR to add a stock.

Good for you.

 

[Southpaw]

My daughters told me which one they wanted if my wife and I die, so I put them in my will.

A trust would eliminate the process of needing to transfer registration to your daughter. With a trust it's hers without any further action required upon your passing.

 

[ScottDLS]

A trust would eliminate the process of needing to transfer registration to your daughter. With a trust it's hers without any further action required upon your passing.

It’s a tax free transfer anyway and I already have a testamentary trust in my will. Even if I didn’t it’s absolutely no different than any other asset which needs to be retitled to the new owner. Unless I have my car in a trust, my heirs will have to go to the DMV/tax office to switch the registration. It's not worth it to me to pay someone create a trust for my cars.

 

[Southpaw]

It’s a tax free transfer anyway and I already have a testamentary trust in my will. Even if I didn’t it’s absolutely no different than any other asset which needs to be retitled to the new owner. Unless I have my car in a trust, my heirs will have to go to the DMV/tax office to switch the registration. It's not worth it to me to pay someone create a trust for my cars.

Perhaps I am wrong but if your daughter is a trustee on an actual gun trust you submit when registering your NFA item then there wouldn't be any need for the firearm to be "retitled" as is the case with the testamentary trust in your will. No?

 

[ScottDLS]

Perhaps I am wrong but if your daughter is a trustee on an actual gun trust you submit when registering your NFA item then there wouldn't be any need for the firearm to be "retitled" as is the case with the testamentary trust in your will. No?

I understand your point, and you are correct. I'm just saying this is the same for any other asset like a car or boat or house, none of which I create specific trusts for in advance. My machine guns are registered in my name individually (though they are legally joint/community property of my wife and me). While I'm alive I'm the only one that shoots them or is really interested in them. When I die I will them to my wife and upon her passing she wills them to my daughters (one for each of them). In both cases the (estate) transfer is NFA tax free. Again, just like a car or property or anything else that is registered, a reregistration has to eventually take place. So what? Is it worth it to pay a lawyer to create some boilerplate trust for every asset? Why? And per my extensive exposition in my original post above ;-) I would just use the MS Word template my lawyer gave me or one from Nolo.

 

[motorcarman]

I used Texas Gun Trust. Filled out info on their website, Paid money, got a response that I could submit my forms for review and they found a few errors. I corrected the forms and they reviewed them again. (OK)

I asked several questions and they responded promptly.

Submitted forms to ATF March 20 2020, got the OK TODAY from my FFL holding the suppressor.

I pick it up in a few hours.

 

[p230]

I used Willi Law Firm. They were good to work with.

 

[motorcarman]

Got my tax stamp and the muffler today.
Tax stamp was dated 08-23-20. So why did I just get this in January 2021?

 

[p230]

Got my tax stamp and the muffler today.
Tax stamp was dated 08-23-20. So why did I just get this in January 2021?

Because they are able to slow play us. Unless you call and KNOW it has been approved they don't seem in a hurry to get the stamp to you. I had one approved on 12/10/20 and the stamp made it to my dealer on 1/20/21. I did call to check on some other stuff that was pending so at that point they knew that I knew. If it has been approved and has not shown up you can request a certified copy from them so you can go pick it up and just get the other stamp when it finally comes in.

 

[TheDan]

It's not worth it to me to pay someone create a trust for my cars.

Depends on the cars and the purpose of owning them, and if your heirs agree on that purpose, too.

I get what you're saying, tho... I never saw the value in a trust for just basic NFA items either.

 

[p230]

Depends on the cars and the purpose of owning them, and if your heirs agree on that purpose, too.

I get what you're saying, tho... I never saw the value in a trust for just basic NFA items either.

The value for me was in know that it would be one less thing that my kids would not have to worry about wondering what I wanted done with them. When my grandad passed away a few years ago he did not leave instructions about what to do with stuff and my Aunt and Uncle fought bitterly with my Dad (he was executer). My Uncle and he reconciled but my Aunt died bitter and alone. You could do the same thing with a will I suppose I just chose a trust. They will all three be of age soon and can be put on the trust if they wish to be thus allowing them to possess the items without me. Once I am gone they can hopefully take some time then decide if they want to keep them all or do something else with them. I don't want my "stuff" to cause strife after I am gone. Maybe this will help and maybe not...never hurts to try though.

 

[ScottDLS]

The value for me was in know that it would be one less thing that my kids would not have to worry about wondering what I wanted done with them. When my grandad passed away a few years ago he did not leave instructions about what to do with stuff and my Aunt and Uncle fought bitterly with my Dad (he was executer). My Uncle and he reconciled but my Aunt died bitter and alone. You could do the same thing with a will I suppose I just chose a trust. They will all three be of age soon and can be put on the trust if they wish to be thus allowing them to possess the items without me. Once I am gone they can hopefully take some time then decide if they want to keep them all or do something else with them. I don't want my "stuff" to cause strife after I am gone. Maybe this will help and maybe not...never hurts to try though.

I understand the points about estate planning, but for me a trust specifically for NFA items makes very little sense. I have a testamentary trust in my will. If I wanted an inter-vivos trust, I'd get my lawyer to do one, or I'd get the boilerplate from Nolo Press.