Why 19 rd mags?

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Texas

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • SIG_Fiend

    Administrator
    Moderator
    TGT Supporter
    Admin
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Feb 21, 2008
    7,160
    46
    Austin, TX
    And be able to reload at speed.

    And be able to retention fire from the #2 or #3 position.

    And have extra mags just in case.

    And have a blade to cut someone off you so you can access the gun and then shoot them off you (or be able to deal with 2 people simultaneously).

    And lastly, have all of your friends with guns. ;)
     

    IXLR8

    TGT Addict
    Rating - 100%
    10   0   0
    May 19, 2009
    3,828
    96
    Republic of Texas
    Is this an effort to build a case for 19 round mags? That is just a standard capacity magazine for a variety of pistols. Not like the limited capacity 10 round mags. :)
     
    Last edited:

    Big Dipper

    Well-Known
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Sep 10, 2012
    2,039
    96
    ATX & FC, WI
    Don't forget about the lessons of the Tueller Drill. And, that is with only a single knife-wielding attacker, not 10.

    The extra 18 rounds probably won't help very much.
     

    Tejano Scott

    TGT Addict
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Jun 6, 2011
    8,123
    31
    The Woodlands
    And be able to reload at speed.

    And be able to retention fire from the #2 or #3 position.

    And have extra mags just in case.

    And have a blade to cut someone off you so you can access the gun and then shoot them off you (or be able to deal with 2 people simultaneously).

    And lastly, have all of your friends with guns. ;)

    Bingo
     

    SIG_Fiend

    Administrator
    Moderator
    TGT Supporter
    Admin
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Feb 21, 2008
    7,160
    46
    Austin, TX
    Could you elaborate on this, please? I'm unfamiliar with this terminology. Thanks!


    Basically, with the typical "4 step" drawstroke that most instructors/schools teach, the #2 and #3 positions of the draw stroke can be retention fire positions if necessary:

    http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/...0680-combative-drawstroke-pictures-video.html


    Basically #2 is the gun just out of the holster and brought up to a thumb pectoral index. The wrist will be pretty much locked, thumb flagged and around the pectoral area, and the gun ends up in a position that's roughly 45 degrees angled towards the ground. The major point here is, at contact distance (grappling with someone, hands on), you will be achieving low hits in the lower chest/torso/pelvis area, which are still good hits, but the primary point is you know WHERE your shots are going. You aren't firing liabilities, and you also are less at risk of shooting your support hand, which you can use for controlling/blocking, accessing a secondary weapon like a blade, etc. Some people have the gun pointed straight forward in a #2, and that's alright, but it can become a safety issue with shooting your support hand/arm if you're hands on with somebody. The worst and least consistent versions of the #2 are the "speed rock" of Gunsite fame, basically firing from the hip which is considerably less consistently indexed. There is also a variation of this where, instead of the gun being in a thumb pectoral index, they rotate the gun outward 45 to 90 degrees with just the magazine baseplate and some of the base of their hand resting on their chest. In that position, you can have a SUBSTANTIAL variation in how high or low you are pointing the gun, and it is considerably less consistent and safe.

    #3 is where your support hand meets the gun. Ideally, centered around your ~mid chest area, both hands on the gun. While actually retention firing, the gun would be parallel to the ground. People use a similar position as a "ready" position, when not firing, however there are variations such as muzzle up at 45 degrees so that you aren't muzzle sweeping everything in the environment.

    Here's some other excellent videos from the late Paul Gomez on these subjects:

    Ready positions:

    Pistol Ready Positions by Gomez-Training.com - YouTube

    #2 retention fire position:

    Retention Position Shooting Basics by Gomez-Training.com - YouTube

    Some more #2:

    'Shooting the Bad Guy Off of the Gun!' by Gomez-Training.com - YouTube

    Some ECQC from Craig David, the industry leader in FOF training (good context on the "why" of some of these techniques):

    EQCQ 2011 - YouTube

    And an excellent demonstration of more context behind how the application of these techniques can be useful:

    ECQC Masking test - YouTube (pay attention to :25 through :57, good stuff!)
     

    SIG_Fiend

    Administrator
    Moderator
    TGT Supporter
    Admin
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Feb 21, 2008
    7,160
    46
    Austin, TX
    Also, to add some thoughts somewhat related to the news story. Personally, I consider a close/contact distance person armed with a blade to be one of the deadliest threats a person can face. What a determined and especially practiced/trained person with a blade can do at close range, in a very short period of time, is absolutely devastating. Considering what we have come to know of ballistic wounding factors, basically any shots that do not hit the upper spinal cord or CNS leave open the possibility of the threat continuing to fight for at least several seconds more. Even in cases where people have been shot in the heart fatally, there are still many examples of people continuing to fight for 5-10+ seconds before passing out and expiring, which is a lifetime in such a situation.

    Anyways, I think there is something to be said for also practicing and building skill with shooting very precise shots at speed and on small targets. People train speed on full size torsos at close range, like 3-7yds, often times accepting fairly large groups. People also train for accuracy at distance. Many people also train speed at distance as well. One other aspect to consider is training extreme accuracy at extreme speed at close range as well. Consider putting yourself on the shot timer and seeing what you can do putting a first round shot from the holster (and test concealment as well, but it doesn't have to be 100% of the time) into the "credit card" of an IPSC target. Not just anywhere in the head box, but the credit card, simulating a solid CNS/cranio-occular shot. Doing that is actually not much different from training speed at distance if you really think about it. At distances like 15-20yds, for pistol calibers, we're not really talking about any appreciable bullet "drop", so shooting a larger target at distance is somewhat similar to shooting a smaller target at closer distance.
     
    Top Bottom