Why are 12G Mini shells considered ok for self defence but .410 buck isn't?

[M2 Carbine]

While my primary home defense shotguns are a Kel Tec KSG and UTAS-15, loaded with Centurion 2 inch Mini Buckshot shells in one magazine and Federal Flite Control 12 ga 00 Buckshot in the other magazine............

..........I do have this 410 Taurus Circuit Judge near the back door, mostly for small critters in the back yard. It's kept loaded with a couple Buckshot for big critters and #6 Shot for small critters.

 

[Steve_In_29]

You want a controlled group more than a tight group with a HD shotgun (meaning you want consistency of spread and knowing where those pellets end up at want distances). You don't want too tight. Think of your targets you set up. You show a spread at 7 yds. That's 21 feet. How big are your rooms in your house? I can bet many, if not most, are not 21 feet (if they are, what are the chances a BG and you are at exact opposite ends during an altercation?). Same at 15 yds. Do you have any rooms or hallways that are 45 feet long? Find your spread at 3 yds and you'll see what I mean. You want your pellets to spread, otherwise you should just use slugs (or a combination by alternating or getting something like a PDX-1 shell). The advantage of the shotgun is spread of pellets so minute of bad guy, as they say, is large enough where you can hit what you're aiming at (a wound cavity means absolutely NOTHING if you don't hit a vital of some sort and a spread increases the likelihood of just that). The stray few pellets of a spreading load are a better risk then a full load off target because you slightly missed with a tight group of an inch as you put it. Ideally you want just over an inch of spread for every 2.5 to 3 feet of distance. So at 3 yds, you get a 3 to 3.5 inch spread. At 7 yds (a typical max in a home defence situation) you would get a 7 to 8 inch spread. If you are shooting past that inside your home you've got a really big house and might consider slugs or a rifle at that point as there is no controlling pellet spread that far out with large caliber pellets (heck, I've seen someone who missed a turkey at that distance with a bad spread aiming at the head).

Just food for thought.

From the door of my bedroom to my front door is indeed 15 yards (I measured it).

While I agree somewhat with your "spread" concept, I think you are confusing the needs of hunting with what's needed for SD. An 8" spread on a bad guy gives way to much chance for a pellet (pellets) to miss the target. A much greater possibility then a missed shot due to too tight of a pattern.

As to "controlling pellet spread", the folks at Federal have licked that problem quite nicely with their Flite Control buckshot. A round that is the current rage for HD/SD/LEO shooting needs. The advantage of this over a slug is that while it is designed to stay in pretty much a solid mass until it hits the target, at that point it allows the pellets to disperse as they move through the flesh creating a bigger wound channel then a single projectile would.

Something the .410 achieves even without a Flite Control wad, simply by virtue of it's pellets exiting the barrel one-behind-the-other.

Here is the 12G Mini buck and .410 at 3 yards. The .410 hole is approx 1/2" wide by 3/4" tall.

From a review of Federal Flite Control shells on The Box-O-Truth (of #1 Buck but the concept is the same) here is the pattern of Flite Control vs non-Flite Control:

at 7 yards

15 yards

and 20 yards

 

[A.Texas.Yankee]

From the door of my bedroom to my front door is indeed 15 yards (I measured it).

While I agree somewhat with your "spread" concept, I think you are confusing the needs of hunting with what's needed for SD. An 8" spread on a bad guy gives way to much chance for a pellet (pellets) to miss the target. A much greater possibility then a missed shot due to too tight of a pattern.

As to "controlling pellet spread", the folks at Federal have licked that problem quite nicely with their Flite Control buckshot. A round that is the current rage for HD/SD/LEO shooting needs. The advantage of this over a slug is that while it is designed to stay in pretty much a solid mass until it hits the target, at that point it allows the pellets to disperse as they move through the flesh creating a bigger wound channel then a single projectile would.

Something the .410 achieves even without a Flite Control wad, simply by virtue of it's pellets exiting the barrel one-behind-the-other.

Here is the 12G Mini buck and .410 at 3 yards. The .410 hole is approx 1/2" wide by 3/4" tall.

From a review of Federal Flite Control shells on The Box-O-Truth (of #1 Buck but the concept is the same) here is the pattern of Flite Control vs non-Flite Control:

at 7 yards

15 yards

and 20 yards

It's not my concept, it's the way HD shotguns are designed (and there's a reason). The idea of buck shot in an HD gun is it's designed to spread out more quickly than a hunting shotty, creating MORE wound channels at close ranges (not necessarily larger), and increasing the chances of solid hits on target. A single hollow point slug will likely cause far more damage to flesh in the impact zone than any pellet (no matter the spread). Your concept is almost like a frangible round, right? Solid mass that breaks apart upon impact. Research has shown that to be a gimmicky mess of false truths. If your goal is to create a single cavernous wound channel, then go for a single mass object like a hollow point slug (or switch to carbine, pistol, etc. That's a different debate).

Hunting, it's exact opposite. With hunting, you want a longer distance before that spread starts to expand because you are shooting game at further distances than you would in an average home. So it would be extremely tight groups up close because you want it to spread up to 50 yard's away in many cases. Again if your home is at larger distances throughout, then you might want that.

My largest room in a 2300 sqft house is an a over average sized room and is still only about 11 yds. And the likely hood of me standing on one side of the room and the BG, the other, is extremely unlikely. In an average (again most, not all) HD situation, it's unlikely you'll need a longer distance shot than 7 yds. That's 7" average spread. Small enough to fit center mass on a BG

15 yds from door to door? 45 feet across? That's an above average distance in a home (and room) you'd need to fire a round. That's the width of many (some, not all) people's whole house. Ask yourself a few questions about that. Is that the only spot in the home I'll ever need it? What is the size of the average room? What are the distances I will be from cover in an ideal defense scenario? Where will I be in less than idea situation? What if I miss the entire load, is no shot on target a better risk than some pellets off target? It might be you need that longer distance spread.

A controlled spread isn't necessarily a tight or vast spread, but consistency of spread and lack of flyers. A controlled spread means that I know that at 7 yds all of my pellets will be with in this diameter, evenly spread as possible to get the best coverage of that spread. The Federal Flight Control rounds are a superb round, proven in hunting to do what they claim. Probably a great thing for LEO, possibly for a home owner. LEO vs HD scenarios are too varied to compare evenly.

As far as you're thinking it's a much lesser chance to miss an entire load compared to a few pellets off target, in post studies it's exactly opposite. People in a SD situation easily miss 100% of the load with a standard buckshot load spreading at 1":3'. Think about that. At 5 yds they've missed a whole load and the BG COMPLETELY with a 5 inch spread, FREQUENTLY. Remember you still have to aim a shotgun (albeit spread is slightly more forgiving than single projectile) and if you think you'll have the same, no pressure accuracy in a SD situation as any other, then you might be in trouble. That's my biggest worry personally, I can train, practice, know my load, etc. all I want, but won't know until I'm in that situation my coordinating and cognitive skills.

And above all else, spread means NOTHING, without penetration. Shots on plywood to show spread are great to know where your shot is going. But you also need to know how DEEP your shots are going. If it's creating a 4" wide channel, great! But what if that channel is only 6-8" deep? Not enough (according to FBI anyway).

Your specific needs may completely be the opposite of the average home owner. Sounds like you have large open areas so maybe you need a tighter group. I'm just giving some thought into your process as many, many others on here have for me.

 

[nichilas1]

I say anything should be legit for defense

 

[Mreed911]

I say anything should be legit for defense

Almost to 25 posts! Can't wait to see what you have to sell!

 

[seeker_two]

I like .410 in 000 Buckshot for HD. Each pellet hits as hard as a 12ga. 000 pellet, but the recoil doesn't hit your shoulder as hard as a 12ga gun. And the goblins can't tell the difference....

 

[satx78247]

While my 12 gauge riot-gun with #1 Buck is my "go to HD weapon", I would NOT feel unarmed with my Model 42 skeet-gun IF nothing better was available.

That's five 000 buckshot in each round, that shoot just as fast as each 000 pellet out of the barrel of a 12 does. = At household defense range, I doubt that a BG would notice the difference.

yours, satx