Winchester's new 350 Legend

[Maverick44]

Winchester came out with a new round designed for use in AR-15s. It's basically a 5.56 that has been straight walled, and uses 0.357" bullets. It will require special magazines, but otherwise looks like it will only require a barrel swap.

I have been interested in a 38 caliber AR for quite a while, even thought about trying to find a wildcat to use. The 357 Max Rimless (357 AR) was looking promising, but then Winchester came out with this. There's not a whole lot of AR cartridges that lend themselves well to using cast bullets, but this one should be great with cast.

https://winchester.com/350-Legend

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[oldag]

Sounds good, but could be another "orphan" candidate.

 

[Sam7sf]

Agreed. I don’t think it will take off. Tough market. From a practical point of view this could be a sweet camping/deer setup.

 

[Bozz10mm]

It has better ballistics than 300 Blk Out. If the ammo is reasonably priced, I can see it taking off. I might be tempted to buy an upper and swap it with my 300 BO upper.

 

[Maverick44]

Don't some states require a straight walled cartridge of at least 38 (or is it 44) caliber to hunt with? I could see this being a big hit in those states. Others, like me would appreciate it's large bore size and it's power.

I think it'll find at least some success.

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[Moonpie]

Winchester .351 Self-Loadng all over agian?
Proprietary brass and everything!

 

[Maverick44]

Winchester .351 Self-Loadng all over agian?
Proprietary brass and everything!

Sure, only rimless, far more powerful, in a much more popular rifle platform, and in a completely different era.

I'm not so sure about the brass being propitiatory. I don't know how much .223 brass would shrink when you straight walled it, but it might be usable.

 

[GeorgeS]

.35 Remington ballistics in a gas-operated gun. Brilliant!

 

[smittyb]

Don't some states require a straight walled cartridge of at least 38 (or is it 44) caliber to hunt with? I could see this being a big hit in those states. Others, like me would appreciate it's large bore size and it's power.

I think it'll find at least some success.

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Yes. that's exactly why this cartridge exists. Straight walled case not over a certain length, and at least 35 caliber.

 

[smittyb]

Sure, only rimless, far more powerful, in a much more popular rifle platform, and in a completely different era.

I'm not so sure about the brass being propitiatory. I don't know how much .223 brass would shrink when you straight walled it, but it might be usable.

I don't think you can make it out of finished .223 brass. The factory starts with "unshaped" 223 brass, other than the case head. Supposedly still fairly cheap to make though, with the volume of 223 Winchester produces.

 

[smittyb]

.35 Remington ballistics in a gas-operated gun. Brilliant!

For the deer hunters in Ohio, Michigan, Illinois, and Iowa it is most certainly is brilliant.
Not every state uses a 7mm Mag to shoot deer under the feeder like Texas.

 

[Sam7sf]

I have never understood deer hunters that use magnums (at short ranges). It’s a deer. I have seen 7.62x39 do the job just fine.

My next ar build is going to be a 25-45 sharps. I have deer in mind for it.

 

[easy rider]

Although I would certainly like to try it out, I don't think I'm going to make any short term plans on getting another barrel for it.

 

[bigwheel]

Winchester came out with a new round designed for use in AR-15s. It's basically a 5.56 that has been straight walled, and uses 0.357" bullets. It will require special magazines, but otherwise looks like it will only require a barrel swap.

I have been interested in a 38 caliber AR for quite a while, even thought about trying to find a wildcat to use. The 357 Max Rimless (357 AR) was looking promising, but then Winchester came out with this. There's not a whole lot of AR cartridges that lend themselves well to using cast bullets, but this one should be great with cast.



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https://winchester.com/350-Legend

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Know in .357 pistols 1100 fps was generally considered the cut off point for trying to use cast bullets. Cant imagine a cast bullet running that fast in that caliber range wihout being a biotch about leading up the barrel. What would make their use so good in that gun? Thanks.

 

[smittyb]

Know in .357 pistols 1100 fps was generally considered the cut off point for trying to use cast bullets. Cant imagine a cast bullet running that fast in that caliber range wihout being a biotch about leading up the barrel. What would make their use so good in that gun? Thanks.

That’s what I thought as well.
It seems at least gas checks would be called for.

 

[Maverick44]

Know in .357 pistols 1100 fps was generally considered the cut off point for trying to use cast bullets. Cant imagine a cast bullet running that fast in that caliber range wihout being a biotch about leading up the barrel. What would make their use so good in that gun? Thanks.

Where did you hear that? I've pushed 200gr lead bullets to 2000 FPS in my 44 mag lever action, and 285gr lead bullets to around 2200 FPS in my 9.3x57 Mauser. No leading to be found.

The cutoff point can vary greatly depending on a huge number of factors that would take a book's worth of info to explain. I just so happen to have that book, and it's free.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_textonly2.pdf

The short version is, gas checks can help, but proper bullet size and sufficient lube are the key to shooting cast at high speed. Ideally, you want the bullet about 0.001" or less smaller than the throat of your chamber, and either at bore size, or 0.001" or more over bore size. That's not possible in all guns, but you can generally get pretty close. Basically, you want the biggest bullet that will chamber (within reason).

The 200gr 44 mag bullet was plain based and was simply tumble lubed with a decently heavy layer of Lee Alox. The 285gr bullet had a gas check and was lubed the old fashion way (lube in the lube grooves). The alloy of lead you use can also play a big part in it's success at high speed. Too soft or too hard, and you're going to have issues.

To further throw a wrench in the works, powdercoating bullets can make it so that they don't lead period. I've heard of people shooting powdercoated lead bullets at 3000 FPS without leading. It acts like a thin jacket. The issue is that while you won't have leading issues, accuracy begins to degrade after a certain point. I believe around 2300-2500 FPS is about as fast as you can push them without the accuracy degrading to an unacceptable level.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

So, did I read this correctly in that it is similar ballistics to a 30-30?

 

[Maverick44]

So, did I read this correctly in that it is similar ballistics to a 30-30?

Did a little looking. Winchester claims that this round will hit 2325 FPS with a 150gr bullet in a 20" barrel. Hodgdon's reloading data lists most of their loads as being round 2300 FPS with a 150gr bullet in a 24" barrel.

So yep.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

Everybody is entitled to their own desires I quess.
I've never been a huge fan of the round myself.

I know, but it's legendary.....

 

[bigwheel]

Where did you hear that? I've pushed 200gr lead bullets to 2000 FPS in my 44 mag lever action, and 285gr lead bullets to around 2200 FPS in my 9.3x57 Mauser. No leading to be found.

The cutoff point can vary greatly depending on a huge number of factors that would take a book's worth of info to explain. I just so happen to have that book, and it's free.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_textonly2.pdf

The short version is, gas checks can help, but proper bullet size and sufficient lube are the key to shooting cast at high speed. Ideally, you want the bullet about 0.001" or less smaller than the throat of your chamber, and either at bore size, or 0.001" or more over bore size. That's not possible in all guns, but you can generally get pretty close. Basically, you want the biggest bullet that will chamber (within reason).

The 200gr 44 mag bullet was plain based and was simply tumble lubed with a decently heavy layer of Lee Alox. The 285gr bullet had a gas check and was lubed the old fashion way (lube in the lube grooves). The alloy of lead you use can also play a big part in it's success at high speed. Too soft or too hard, and you're going to have issues.

To further throw a wrench in the works, powdercoating bullets can make it so that they don't lead period. I've heard of people shooting powdercoated lead bullets at 3000 FPS without leading. It acts like a thin jacket. The issue is that while you won't have leading issues, accuracy begins to degrade after a certain point. I believe around 2300-2500 FPS is about as fast as you can push them without the accuracy degrading to an unacceptable level.[/QU

Forget where I first heard that. Gun magazine or some exspurt most likely. Of the various calibers .357 mag seemed to be considered the biggest culprit to get leaded up with fast cast bullets. Back in the Metallic Silhoutte hobby in the 80s everybody I knew plus me...melted down lead wheel weights. Not sure wheel weights are even made out of lead these days. I quit being interested in the hobby quite a while back. Found this link on the topic for them who likes to read.
http://www.grantcunningham.com/2008/08/preventing-barrel-leading-in-revolvers-using-cast-bullets/