Woman attacked on subway platform as workers looked on

[DrBart2]

OK, we all think others should help in such situations.....but the thrust of the article was that the woman wanted the witnesses held civilly responsible.

Do you want THAT?

No

 

[MadMo44Mag]

Here's the problem with allowing victims to take civil action for not getting involved:

In this case, we had a clerk in a booth and a train conductor. That's pretty easy. We've got two people we can sue by name.

What if this happened on a busy street with hundreds of people around? Who do you sue? Do you want to be the unlucky one in 500 who happened to be identified and sued?

Secondly, unlike law enforcement, private citizens have no legal duty to get involved. Suing someone for not getting involved implies that they have some legal duty to do so.

Next, you assume a tremendous amount of liability by getting involved, and, in most cases, once you get involved, you are committed and ceasing your assistance could be actionable.

The problem is our sue-happy society has made getting involved such a risky business that no one wants to do it; combine that with the fact that we've raised a bunch of narcissists. If you're going to sue me for not getting involved, you'd better stop suing me when I DO get involved.

Trust me I see and understand the point everyone is making.
But in cases such as this where there are "KNOWN" witnesses they need to be held accountable for their lack of action.

I guess my problem is as stated; I have been in this very situation.
Victim of violent crime witnessed by others that just ignored what was happening to me.
I suppose until it happens too you, you can't fully appreciate how this effects you and your thoughts on holding "KNOWN WITNESSES" accountable.

 

[DoubleActionCHL]

Trust me I see and understand the point everyone is making.
But in cases such as this where there are "KNOWN" witnesses they need to be held accountable for their lack of action.

I guess my problem is as stated; I have been in this very situation.
Victim of violent crime witnessed by others that just ignored what was happening to me.
I suppose until it happens too you, you can't fully appreciate how this effects you and your thoughts on holding "KNOWN WITNESSES" accountable.

I understand where you're coming from. I just don't believe holding those "known witnesses" civilly responsible is the answer. As a nation, our morals and values have deteriorated. We're not going to legislate them back into existence. You can't scare people into doing the right thing. They either have it in them or they don't.

 

[DrBart2]

Some people don't respond due to apathy, others due to fear. As disgusting as it is for someone to not to try to help, I don't believe they should be held liable. These people did what they were trained to do (call the police) and that is what they did. I believe they should have done more, but I have been raised to actually care for those I don't even know.

I have talked to many a missionary who has been in third world countries about this subject. In many parts of the world a person will only be concerned with their immediate family. There places in this world where if a child was being torn apart by a dog in the middle of a crowded market, the only people who would be concerned would be the child's family. The crowd would look on with morbid curiosity, but would not only not help, but would not really care. In the world, this is more common than not. I believe this is due to the culture of the area. When Japan had their last big devastating earthquake, many Japanese officials were surprised that there were individuals who helped dig strangers and neighbors out of the rubble. They said that the Japanese culture is not one of "helping thy neighbor". I guess some of our culture has rubbed off on them (maybe). In American history, it was necessary for people to help their neighbors. It was a positive function of survival. So, we have developed from a "lend a hand" culture. Unfortunately, in overpopulated areas (like NYC, and even some areas of Houston and Dallas) this culture is being lost. In general the "south" still has a helping culture, but I am afraid it is slowly slipping away. There are books on this subject, so I won't write one here.

 

[kingofwylietx]

Trust me I see and understand the point everyone is making.
But in cases such as this where there are "KNOWN" witnesses they need to be held accountable for their lack of action.

I guess my problem is as stated; I have been in this very situation.
Victim of violent crime witnessed by others that just ignored what was happening to me.
I suppose until it happens too you, you can't fully appreciate how this effects you and your thoughts on holding "KNOWN WITNESSES" accountable.

Well, I like you, but I have to disagree with your position. I don't feel that civilians should be legally bound to act in defense of another. It may work out fine in some situations, but not in others. It is not something you can universally apply across all situations. Suppose a mother of 3 young children had to legally wrest against 2 hoodlums to save a crack-head in the subway? What if she was killed while performing her 'legal' duty? Would her family then sue the crack-head? What standards would be in place to determine whether they were required to act? Would it be a 1-1 ratio of 'witness' vs 'attacker' or would 1 person still be required to act against a mob of 500? How about expected outcome of a 90 year old unarmed great-grandfather against a steroid driven 25 year old that could kill him with one pinky?

When you move possible moral obligations to legal or civil obligations, it can get very tricky. Where do you stop? Do you apply the same theory of 'witnesses being required to act' to speeders, red light runners, cheating spouses, armed robberies, and illegal immigration?

 

[GM.Chief]

I don't think anyone should be liable in a court just because they happened to be in a place where something was going on. That being said however, I think someone should give 'em a quick swift in the groin for not trying to help another human being survive. I'm pretty sure if they were in the same situation they would DEMAND help. Why you ask? Because that's how those type of people are... People who want to be helpful, like us, don't really expect someone else to stick their neck out, but it won't dissuade us from helping regardless. People who don't stick their necks out to help someone however typically seem to have an attitude that all of us are there for them, but they don't need to reciprocate. Like the sheep they are, they expect to be protected from the wolves while not defending themselves or each other in the least bit. The only exception being when it affects someone they care about (wife, child, etc.), but really that's still only protecting their own intersts.

 

[MadMo44Mag]

I want to thank all that responded back and were kind and did not flame me - THANKS!!!!

Well, I agree and disagree all in one breath.(LOL)
I see everyone's point and understand and yes it would be very difficult to make a reasonable law in regards to this topic.
But as I stated until you are the victim it's hard to see the other side of the issue.
I hope no one on this forum ever has a gun stuck to their head and faced with the knowledge that they may die any second while others watch and do nothing.
The ill emotions felt towards the witnesses that did nothing and just watched are as great as the animosity felt towards the BG.

Again - thanks all!!!!

 

[DoubleActionCHL]

I see this problem only getting worse. America has always been a generous nation. Conservatives give about 3 times more to charities than do liberals. With this turn to socialism and a "government will take care of you attitude," I see fewer and fewer Americans giving of themselves, particularly when the government is taking the money at gunpoint and supposedly doing the "giving" for us. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[MadMo44Mag]

I see this problem only getting worse. America has always been a generous nation. Conservatives give about 3 times more to charities than do liberals. With this turn to socialism and a "government will take care of you attitude," I see fewer and fewer Americans giving of themselves, particularly when the government is taking the money at gunpoint and supposedly doing the "giving" for us. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

You are right, it's not going to get any better.
I am sure our fore fathers have turned over in their graves by now.
Well, Welcome to the United Socialist States of America.

 

[kingofwylietx]

Another point of view for you Mo: You were faced with a bad situation, you survived, and now you have taken the steps necessary to help prevent it from happening again. There are people that could be in your shoes, but rather than decide to protect themselves, they would run to the government and ask that the government have its people turn in their guns.

I think this is all a symptom caused by a lack of leadership and personal responsibility in the home. I think the parent(s) are fully responsible for the children they create. The parents should teach empathy, morals, and values to their own children. I don't believe this is the role of our education system, as values and morals do vary by the individual.

Too many people rely upon the government for everything in their life. They can't imagine doing for themselves, bettering themselves, protecting themselves, or planning for a brighter future for themselves or their offspring. They only take what the charitable hand of government offers; they can imagine nothing else. It is self fulfilling prophecy that is played out from generation to generation.......they are truly enslaved people.

 

[Green Hornet]

How ironic reading the original post and viewing the video, and myself having lived in that area, part of my life. Astoria/L.I.C. area.
Well since all private transit systems, IND, IRT, BMT, today, are now run bt the city, New York City Transit System. Things have not changed for the better, I see.
I hope she wins. Things can change. But she would not be the only one to be a victim in a situtation like this as well as other forms of injustice that has been done in the past to people, when it comes to Mass Transit.

 

[MadMo44Mag]

Another point of view for you Mo: You were faced with a bad situation, you survived, and now you have taken the steps necessary to help prevent it from happening again. There are people that could be in your shoes, but rather than decide to protect themselves, they would run to the government and ask that the government have its people turn in their guns.

I think this is all a symptom caused by a lack of leadership and personal responsibility in the home. I think the parent(s) are fully responsible for the children they create. The parents should teach empathy, morals, and values to their own children. I don't believe this is the role of our education system, as values and morals do vary by the individual.

Too many people rely upon the government for everything in their life. They can't imagine doing for themselves, bettering themselves, protecting themselves, or planning for a brighter future for themselves or their offspring. They only take what the charitable hand of government offers; they can imagine nothing else. It is self fulfilling prophecy that is played out from generation to generation.......they are truly enslaved people.

kingofwylietx you are so right.
People don't want to take any responsibility for any thing or anyone not even themselves. I see it every day.
I hope it is not to late to turn things around but I doubt if it happens, it would happen in my life time.
It has taken 40+ years to get where we are at and it would take that long or loner to turn it around.
As long as we have a socialist / Marxist styled party (Democrats) it may never happen.
And for those you want to flame me for the above comments, that just shows how little you understand the Democratic platform.
The name of the party implies this in itself. Democrat - democracy - NOT REPUBLIC as this nation was found on.

Rant off!

 

[navyguy]

I’m a little late in commenting on this thread, though I’ve read it.

The bottom line is you need to be able to defend your self. Although it would be nice if people would come to your assistance, you can’t depend on that. And You need situational awareness, as well as a means to protect your self. And you’ve got to prepare you self mentally, to take the action necessary in the face of fear.

There was an editorial in today’s Fort Worth Startlegram writing by left winger Bob Ray Sanders questioning the recent gun/ammo buying frenzy. In the article he asks “what are we scared of, and why do we need so many guns and so much ammo” What an idiot
.

 

[M. Sage]

I haven't commented on this thread here, either but I saw it on Calguns.

I can't understand how you could live with yourself, not acting to help in a situation like that.

“what are we scared of, and why do we need so many guns and so much ammo”

Someone aught to tell him; we're scared of Obama!

 

[Green Hornet]

What the sad part of watching the video, the interviewer, never asked questions like, what can woman, people of New York City, for that matter, do to protect themselves in these situations? Their was a lawyer, right their, sitting right across from her...Never asked him questions about the use of physical and deadly physical force, use of weapons….the options, type of weapons, New York City people can use within N.Y.C. law, where they are not physically capably of handling themselves against attackers that overpower them.

Carrying a firearm is out of the question in New York City, unless your one of the chosen few in N.Y.C. to carry one from Mayor Bloomberg and then you would not be riding the subway system. You would be taking a taxi or limo to you destinations.

I would like to have seen what would have happened if that woman had pulled the emergency brake in the train car, each car has one. One can pull the emergency brake, even while the train is at a dead stop at the station. The motorman and conductor would have to open their door to their booth and walk the cars to see what’s up, before they reset the brakes.

Texas is not New York City. Texas people have different options to deal with a situation like the one in the video. At least The People of Texas have that option. Unfortunately, New York City people don’t. There are also those in N.Y.C., that don’t look at options. They do what they have to do to protect themselves in those situations, when their life is at stake. Maybe, with that video, it will change. The status quo of things anyway?