Baltimore Major Bridge Collapse

[Big Dipper]

The way they hide the terrorism is by making it not look like terrorism. They are sneaky that way, right? The terrorists that tend to survive longer are the ones that don't call attention to themselves. With that said, not all terrorism is designed for maximal damage.

Maybe this was the only ship they could control in the window of opportunity?

Maybe the ship was off schedule?

Maybe this was a secondary target because the primary was unavailable or unattainable? Maybe the primary attack actually failed to occur and this was just a supportive attack?



First, it should be pointed out that not all terrorism is based on political goals. There is also social terrorism, such as the burning of Black churches

Until we know who did it, knowing the actual political or social/societal goals likely will not be possible. With that in mind, it is also important to understand that political or social goals may not be the only goals involved. For all we know, this is a proof of concept terrorist attack. The terrorists are using this to gather intel on the effectiveness of what they did, the civilian response and response capabilities, and federal government's response times as well. Who knows?

If we go with some of the more paranoid people's claims, this isn't the goal of the attack as much as the distraction caused by the attack. The terrorists are merely using this event to hide other activities that will lead up to them accomplishing their goals, you know, like this just being Step 1 of a multi-phase program. Maybe while the bridge disaster was going on and all services were looking to the bridge, a semisubmersible surfaced a few miles down shore and offloaded a terrorist cell onto US land...which was the whole goal of the operation with the bridge.


The bridge may not be the symbol, but the port itself and the easiest way to shut down a port like Baltimore is to shut down access. If terrorists did it, then they accomplished at least one goal. Maybe the US as a country was the symbol and giving us a black eye was the goal? It may be symbolic to them to show their peers that it could be done. The question is when it comes to symbolism, to you need to know all of the target audience(s).

What was the symbolism of the Boston Marathon bombing? What was the symbolism of the Sunset Limited that was derailed by terrorists? Sometimes, what is damaged isn't the symbolic goal.

Was this domestic terrorism or international?



Well, a few million Americans already "KNOW" this was a terrorist attack and are vapidly trying to convince others.




Kind of heavy handed on the "Lastlies," but this is probably the only question I don't actually have a problem with. Not all terrorists claim their attacks or claim them at or near the time of the attack. "Credence" isn't always any sort of goal and it isn't a trait of terrorism. A terroristic attack can occur without credence to the cause and still be a terror attack.

The Oklahoma City Bombing wasn't claimed by the perps. Americans did then what they are doing now and pulling stuff out of their asses. Americans were convinced the bombing in OKC was by terrorists (specifically, Middle Eastern Terrorists). This worked in the actual terrorists' favor who were white guys. Their goals weren't known until AFTER their capture.

Even more confusing is the fact that often is the case that multiple groups will take credit for an attack and given reasons for why they did it, despite the fact that they weren't the ones to do it and the reasons & goals expressed by them were not the reasons and goals of the people who actually carried out the attack.

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I know it is hard for many people to believe, you and I not being among them, but accidents do sometimes happen. People are sometimes incompetent. Do any of y'all recall the brief period of panic that occurred in NYC when that plane crashed...into a neighborhood shortly after 9/11? Seems like EVERYONE knew it was terrorists. Al Queda even claimed credit. It wasn't. The plane hit wake turbulence and the first officer over corrected and literally over stressed the plane to failure...and this was not the first such event of this happening to Airbus 300s and a flight directive had to be released concerning operation of the aircraft in such circumstances, but everyone 'knew' it was terrorism until it was determined that it wasn't. Funny how that works.

So, how much do you think the two local pilots were paid to look the other way or be participants in this terrorism scheme? Especially knowing that shutting down the port for x number of weeks or months would leave them unemployed? Or were they radicals of some sort?

Or do you think that the chief engineer could precisely time a fake failure so that a catastrophe could occur? How many crewmen would need to be involved in order to scam the onboard local pilots Into believing that it was an equipment failure?

Never forget Ockham's razor.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

So, how much do you think the two local pilots were paid to look the other way or be participants in this terrorism scheme? Especially knowing that shutting down the port for x number of weeks or months would leave them unemployed? Or were they radicals of some sort?

Or do you think that the chief engineer could precisely time a fake failure so that a catastrophe could occur? How many crewmen would need to be involved in order to scam the onboard local pilots Into believing that it was an equipment failure?

Never forget Ockham's razor.

Occam's Razor has this as just a normal accident. It isn't like ships crashing into things is unusual or abnormal, unfortunately.

This accident was long overdue. Seriously. The bridge had no redundancy and the bridge supports were not protected from vessel traffic. It is pretty shocking the bridge managed to survive this long.

 

[Younggun]

Already been addressed in this thread - the missing data from the data recorder is consistent with the time the ship had no power. No power to run the lights and engines, no power to run the data recorder and no data to record. The voice recorder did keep working.




Not sure why "Pilot" is in quotes, it's the job description. Also not sure what the pilot's race and gender have to do with anything. Nobody can steer a cargo ship with no power, and nobody can stop one on a dime. To reverse the screw you apparently have to kill the engine, switch gears, then start the engine back up...and on a single screw ship (which that one is) that'll cause you to yaw to the side exactly as it did. If it had happened a few hundred feet earlier, it would be a close call that didn't even make the news.

Only thing I think is off here is that there is no gear change. They kill the engine (might have been dead already) and start it back up in reverse. The engines don’t like this which is why it was smoking so much.

Source: What’s goin on in Shipping YT channel

 

[Gordo]

Only thing I think is off here is that there is no gear change. They kill the engine (might have been dead already) and start it back up in reverse. The engines don’t like this which is why it was smoking so much.

Source: What’s goin on in Shipping YT channel

Yup, Two Stroke Diesels.

 

[General Zod]

Only thing I think is off here is that there is no gear change. They kill the engine (might have been dead already) and start it back up in reverse. The engines don’t like this which is why it was smoking so much.

Source: What’s goin on in Shipping YT channel

Yeah, I wasn't sure how to word that so "gear change" instead of "start the thing up in reverse". I'm personally amazed a ship that big has a single screw. Good lord.

 

[General Zod]

Don't you need to go and invent another imaginary cartridge?

Don't tempt me. And don't resurrect that thread.

 

[seeker_two]

For supporting any arguement, having Zeihan agree with you is a -1.....

 

[benenglish]

Yeah, he has legit critics, for sure.

But he's not wrong about the Jones Act. I knew about that one long before I had heard of Zeihan.

 

[majormadmax]

Words...

Fair points, but none prove it was a terrorist attack.

In fact, there is zero evidence that does.

But, as you also pointed out, that doesn't stop some from claiming it was; even if they're wrong...

I get it, such claims fit their agendas; but as a professional I can't accept them without any proof.

 

[Younggun]

I don’t think DNS meant to imply it was terrorists. I think there was some play on the devils advocate side, but the last paragraph lead me to believe he though it was highly unlikely.


Maybe I read it wrong n

 

[TheDan]

Pols already admitting that getting the port re-opened is about Baltimore economy, not national.

I had a feeling things would mostly carry on as normal, but to say there is no national impact isn't accurate. Other ports already have a queue, and ships diverting to them will lengthen them. Might not be a huge impact, but when everyone is already operating on slim margins, adding another 5% does have an impact.

no power to run the data recorder and no data to record.

That's two different things, really. I find it odd that a "black box" wouldn't have battery backup and record continuously regardless if data was coming into it or not. Recording all zeros is still useful troubleshooting data, and is different from the data being missing.

I also don't trust the media to have reported on that accurately. Also wouldn't be surprised if the emergency data recorder wasn't maintained properly (it needed it's batteries changed). Like I said earlier, I always assume incompetence first.

Also not sure what the pilot's race and gender have to do with anything.

It shouldn't, but it depends on who hired her. DEI is absolutely contributing to the competency crisis.

This accident was long overdue. Seriously. The bridge had no redundancy and the bridge supports were not protected from vessel traffic.

That was what some locals I know up there immediately said. Apparently calls for adding impact fortifications being ignored has been an issue for a long time.

 

[TheDan]

oh no... something I just thought of. How is this going to effect the Chesapeake Bay oyster crop?

 

[General Zod]

That's two different things, really. I find it odd that a "black box" wouldn't have battery backup and record continuously regardless if data was coming into it or not. Recording all zeros is still useful troubleshooting data, and is different from the data being missing.

It's a data recorder. If there's no data, then there's nothing to record. "Recording all zeros" might not be a priority for the agency that requires the data recorder. The voice recorder continued recording, so it's fairly easy for the investigators to say "Oh, it stopped at this timestamp, then started up again here...let's compare to what the voice recorder caught." You're assigning an air of mystery where there just isn't one.

 

[General Zod]

It shouldn't, but it depends on who hired her. DEI is absolutely contributing to the competency crisis.

Hell of an assumption based on a rumor. Harbor pilots aren't just hired off the street - they are experienced sailors and go through years of apprenticeship. Besides, there were two harbor pilots aboard. So anything about "the" pilot should probably be ignored anyway.

 

[TheDan]

If there's no data, then there's nothing to record.

That's completely inaccurate as I already stated. I don't know much about ships, but I do know about data recording for failure analysis.

"Recording all zeros" might not be a priority for the agency that requires the data recorder.

Incompetence on their part then.

You're assigning an air of mystery where there just isn't one.

Sorry, you misunderstand my post. I'm assigning incompetence to the whole thing.

 

[General Zod]

That's completely inaccurate as I already stated. I don't know much about ships, but I do know about data recording for failure analysis.

Incompetence on their part then.

Sorry, you misunderstand my post. I'm assigning incompetence to the whole thing.

I'd say you're splitting hairs. In everything I've read and heard about the gap in the data recording, one thing I haven't seen is phrases like "we don't know why" or "for some reason" when investigators are discussing it. So it seems like something they expect in the situation.

 

[popper]

Pilots probably got off onto the tugs when they left (after the ship made the final turn into the channel) - per normal. Early morning, empty channel, skipper decides to 'haul butt' out (was going 1/2 max speed - in the channel!). Loses electrical power, emergency happens. Drops an anchor but no 'stopper', reverses - too fast - bang!! If you don't have a shallow 'stopper' on the anchor, it does NO good. Crew was probably just hanging around - expecting to be out of the harbor in a minute or so. Just normal been there, done that, rinse and repeat. If you watch the position tracking during the event you see the tugs head back after the turn - almost get to dock, then haul ass toward the ship. No pilot boat in the track. Looks like a small CG boat (probably on-duty crew) is first to get there. Electric power outage? That is strange. Somebody throw the wrong switch? Or forget to throw the right one? Normal to turn harbor lighting off when leaving. The black box doesn't record all like an A/C BB.

 

[Big Dipper]

Pilots probably got off onto the tugs when they left (after the ship made the final turn into the channel) - per normal. Early morning, empty channel, skipper decides to 'haul butt' out (was going 1/2 max speed - in the channel!). Loses electrical power, emergency happens. Drops an anchor but no 'stopper', reverses - too fast - bang!! If you don't have a shallow 'stopper' on the anchor, it does NO good. Crew was probably just hanging around - expecting to be out of the harbor in a minute or so. Just normal been there, done that, rinse and repeat. If you watch the position tracking during the event you see the tugs head back after the turn - almost get to dock, then haul ass toward the ship. No pilot boat in the track. Looks like a small CG boat (probably on-duty crew) is first to get there. Electric power outage? That is strange. Somebody throw the wrong switch? Or forget to throw the right one? Normal to turn harbor lighting off when leaving. The black box doesn't record all like an A/C BB.

I believe that the pilots are required to be on board all of the way to Cape Henry not just to the mouth of Baltimore Harbor.

 

[wakosama]

2 ship companies are invoking a 200-year-old law to try to skirt huge legal liabilities from the Baltimore collision

The companies want to cap their liability at $43.7 million by invoking a 19th-century maritime law previously used by the Titanic's owner.

news.yahoo.com

 

[ZX9RCAM]

From the article....

"The freight was valued at $1.2 million."

That doesn't sound right to me.