Man shoots self then leaves feedback for ammo maker.

[candcallen]

Who said it wasn't? Who said it was? The only thing I said regarding Preformance was that a defense round or frangible round would be considered a failure if it exited the body as it's designed to do the opposite.

Wheres the bull in that?

The terminology is a description of the design and purpose not a prognostication regarding its terminal performance.

Dont confuse the powdered metal or compressed metal type frag rounds for partitioned rounds. The prior have been pretty much inadequate in stopping depending on placement or some would say luck. The fact it comes apart so quickly after it encounters resistance in the body is why the concept is becoming popular for steel or indoor shooting. Kinda like bird shot low brass target ammo for self defense. It may make a bloody wound but a shallow one that disappoints on stopping power.

The partition rounds may be a different story depending again on placement and design. Parts may stay big enough for penetration while other part or parts may then enhance bleeding or do nothing at all. Actual shootings will tell the tale on the latter.

 

[Younggun]

Who said it wasn't? Who said it was? The only thing I said regarding Preformance was that a defense round or frangible round would be considered a failure if it exited the body as it's designed to do the opposite.

Wheres the bull in that?

The terminology is a description of the design and purpose not a prognostication regarding its terminal performance.

Dont confuse the powdered metal or compressed metal type frag rounds for partitioned rounds. The prior have been pretty much inadequate in stopping depending on placement or some would say luck. The fact it comes apart so quickly after it encounters resistance in the body is why the concept is becoming popular for steel or indoor shooting. Kinda like bird shot low brass target ammo for self defense. It may make a bloody wound but a shallow one that disappoints on stopping power.

The partition rounds may be a different story depending again on placement and design. Parts may stay big enough for penetration while other part or parts may then enhance bleeding or do nothing at all. Actual shootings will tell the tale on the latter.

You said frangible rounds, which in defensive ammo is reference to Glazer or powdered metal. Junk.


As far as “bull”, the idea the defensive rounds should be frangible, or have any meaningful difference to duty rounds, is laughable. Only in very few circumstances would a frangible or reduced penetration round be advantageous.


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[Hoji]

Give me a no kidding acceptable definition of ‘defense’ vs ‘duty’ ammo.

Marketing doesn’t count.

Defense ammo is ammo that just barely failed quality control for duty ammo.

Simple as that. For ammo to be packaged and sold as “duty” It has to meet some very exacting specs. 1/10 grain of overall weight off of that spec, it goes in the personal defense boxes.

At least that is what the ammo reps I know have said.

 

[toddnjoyce]

At least that is what the ammo reps I know have said.

That’s all well and good, but what, specifically, is the criteria for duty vs defense?

I ask because M882, also known as 9mm ball, is one duty ammo I am quite familiar with, and is the only ammunition authorized for most military duty use.

I’m also aware of a major Federal LE agency uses Win PDX1 as their issues duty 9mm ammo.

I think we can all admit there’s a world of difference between 115 grain 9mm ball and a 124 or 147 grain bonded JHP, yet neither are manufactured, labeled, sold, or advertised as ‘duty’ or ‘defense’ ammo.

 

[Hoji]

That’s all well and good, but what, specifically, is the criteria for duty vs defense?

I ask because M882, also known as 9mm ball, is one duty ammo I am quite familiar with, and is the only ammunition authorized for most military duty use.

I’m also aware of a major Federal Le agency uses Win PDX1 as their issues duty 9mm ammo.

Neither are manufactured, labeled, sold, or advertised as ‘duty’ or ‘defense’ ammo.

The criteria for “defense” is it fails QC for “duty”. Duty for .mil is going to be different than .gov

 

[easy rider]

 

[skfullgun]

Informative video. Thanks for posting.

 

[easy rider]

Informative video. Thanks for posting.

I saw that video about a year or so ago, and with the discussion where it's at it seemed appropriate.

 

[TheMailMan]

Defense ammo is ammo that just barely failed quality control for duty ammo.

Simple as that. For ammo to be packaged and sold as “duty” It has to meet some very exacting specs. 1/10 grain of overall weight off of that spec, it goes in the personal defense boxes.

At least that is what the ammo reps I know have said.

Did those ammo reps give ya a reach around too?

1/10th grain of what? Bullet weight varies that much and more in almost all bullets. Case weight? Again it varies that much and more in almost all cases.

Powder charge? Maybe, but to know that's it's 1/10th of a grain off you would have to weigh each charge, and/or weigh each case before and after the charge. Neither one is happening in a production environment. It would be possible to set up a computer controlled weighing device on a production line but the cost would be high. AFAIK everyone uses a volume measurement which is +/- .1 grain. That 1/10th grain makes a very negligible difference in pistol ammo.

 

[skfullgun]

Some folks here are attempting to have a decent conversation. How about we keep the insults to a minimum?

 

[Younggun]

Who insulted somebody?


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[Hoji]

Did those ammo reps give ya a reach around too?

1/10th grain of what? Bullet weight varies that much and more in almost all bullets. Case weight? Again it varies that much and more in almost all cases.

Powder charge? Maybe, but to know that's it's 1/10th of a grain off you would have to weigh each charge, and/or weigh each case before and after the charge. Neither one is happening in a production environment. It would be possible to set up a computer controlled weighing device on a production line but the cost would be high. AFAIK everyone uses a volume measurement which is +/- .1 grain. That 1/10th grain makes a very negligible difference in pistol ammo.

It can be as inconsequential as a blemish.