The Best Way to Hold a Beretta Px4 Storm Full Sized 9mm

[coboblack]

I would like to hear how other people who have shot or own Beretta Px4 Storm Full Sided 9mm's prefer to hold their pistol. I have been cycling through a few different holds to see which feels better, helps with recoil (which isn't a lot to begin with) and accuracy.

I keep both thumbs forward, which some people swear by and others think is a fad, but I kind have to because of either an injury as a kid or the way I was born. I cant bend my thumb unless my index finger is bent, BUT weirdly, I can bend my index finger without bending my thumb. So it just feels more comfortable with me.

A lot of pistols I shot before the Px4, and when getting advice from experienced friends or family members, they would tell me to grip the trigger guard with my support hands index finger. But then again, those peoples guns had a grip on the trigger guard.

I liked that grip but when I use it on the Px4, it feels stable in my hands, but my finger doesn't feel in place. And when I shoot, the smooth curved edged of the trigger guard makes my finger want to slide off. So today I spent some time, 250 rounds with a high grip, and finger off the trigger guard and it felt more comfortable, as in, everything felt like it was in the right spot, but It was less stable holding and as I shot.

I'm far from a pistol marksman, and I know it is ultimately up to me and I'll have to spend more time at the range with it, but I was curious how other people are shooting it.

Here is today trying new grip (Like I said, no marksmen or anything)


Here was 51 rounds at 10 Yards on a bigger target.

Here was 51 rounds on a small target on only 5 yards, but with Rapid fire to get a feel for its stability

And here was 34 rounds at that Small Target at 20 yards. I only hit the paper 13 out of 34 rounds, but that damn thing was only about as wide as a pencil =P

 

[coboblack]

I'll post some pic's on the two different ways I've been holding later on, wouldn't mind some critique if anyone notices anything I'm doing wrong.

 

[BG1960]

looks like he's dead whatever way you hold it.

 

[coboblack]

looks like he's dead whatever way you hold it.

Hahaha yeah, but I'm a perfectionist when it comes to talents and hobbies or skills.

 

[itchin]

Good shootin, but what are clips?

 

[scap99]

Clips are for your hair. Haha

Keep your finger off the front of the trigger guard.
Thumbs foreword isn't a fad, TGO and Brian Enos perfected it back in the day.
http://robleatham.com/wp/
http://brianenos.com/pages/words.html#fundamental

Get Brian's book. Practical Shooting - Beyond Fundamentals. It's the end all be all of shooting technique from a deep thinkers perspective. Not many pictures, mostly words. Hard read, but it's almost like it was divinely inspired.


Tapatalk sent it.

 

[M. Sage]

LOL, who says putting your thumbs forward is a fad? Better recoil control is a "fad"!?

Are these the same people who swear that those "finicky, complicated, unreliable" semi auto pistols are a fad?

In all seriousness, +1 to keeping your finger off the trigger guard. The fingers of your support hand should all be a "blade", with the heel of that hand filling the void that your trigger hand leaves on the grip. Grip as high as possible, cant the support hand forward so if you let go and straighten it, you make a straight line down the top of your forearm and thumb. Run the support hand index finger to the bottom of the trigger guard. Slightly more pressure from teh support hand, but you really don't have to grip all that hard if you're doing this right. Support thumb straight forward, and trigger hand thumb on the outside of the support thumb's knuckle to keep it from interfering with your pistol's slide catch. Lean forward at the waist (nose in front of toes), back straight, chest square to target, elbows out (not down!!!), extend equally on both sides and kill the shit out of that target. No need to lock the elbows, if they're pointed out, the recoil will just push straight back. Pointing elbows down gives the gun a hinge for muzzle flip...

The main name of this game is recoil control, but I do pretty well against shotgun hulls laying on the 25 yard berm shooting like this.

Again, if it's a fad (it's been around for better than a decade), then I don't know anything about anything.

 

[scap99]

It's a fad, because everyone's doing it. Lol

It just plain works. Nothing else out there manages recoil like thumbs forward.


Tapatalk sent it.

 

[M. Sage]

It's a fad, because everyone's doing it. Lol

It just plain works. Nothing else out there manages recoil like thumbs forward.


Tapatalk sent it.

+1. There's a reason every top competition shooter does it.

 

[scgstuff]

Like this MSage? (don't know if YouTube posts right from tapatalk.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0HkjXpQBxc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[SIG_Fiend]

Grip method doesn't affect accuracy. The only thing the grip method affects is how you manage the recoil. People can shoot accurately, and shoot well enough with a number of different grip methods. The thumbs forward grip is physiologically more effective in that it allows for an increased level of recoil control as well as more consistent recoil control (consistency is everything when shooting at speed). Old school grip methods like thumb over thumb are alright, and you can still probably achieve ~75% of the performance, but that will be the significant limiting factor when shooting at speed. Thumbs forward can allow you to shoot as well as you possibly can, gaining that extra performance. The question: Is "alright" good enough when you are talking about your life? To me, it isn't.



Some facts:

-Rob Leatham and Brian Enos invented the "thumbs forward" grip back ~1986
-As of now, there are no known national or international level competitors shooting with anything other than a general thumbs forward grip on semi autos (many use it for revolvers as well). I say general because there are minor variations on it, and a number of national/international level competitors use different variations, though they still stick to most of the basics of thumbs forward.

That's 26 years of the top people in the country, as well as the world using the same basic grip method. It's not just competition shooters. All top level schools in the country teach some variation of thumbs forward. All the different branches of US Military Special Operations that I know of teach some variation of the thumbs forward. That says a lot. It's not good to get "stuck" on techniques, and who knows, maybe the thumbs forward will be superseded by something even more effective at managing recoil. Until then, the performance speaks for itself.

 

[Younggun]

I like the thumbs forward but tend to vary between sages method of square shoulders and a weaver type stance.

I like my px4 but have noticed it's grip seems less "grippy". My support hand seems to try to slip when shooting faster

I have tried canting my support hand forward but it doesn't seem to work well for me. Everyone's built different, find a time tested method then modify it to suite the way you and the gun fit together.

My way of doin things anyways.

 

[scap99]

Like this MSage? (don't know if YouTube posts right from tapatalk.)

Amazing Thumbs Forward Grip for Semi-Automatic Handguns - YouTube

That's it.

Here's another good vid from an awesome shooter...

 

[SIG_Fiend]

As far as the basics of thumbs forward, here's some pointers Coboblack:

Primary Hand:
-Web of hand as high on the grip/grip tang as possible
-Gun as centered in the wrist as possible (Grip the gun, aim downrange one-handed, is the gun centered on your wrist and straight down your arm, or is it cocked to the side a bit?)
-Thumb flagged high NOT clamped down on the grip (This will make sense later)
-Fingers wrapped around grip
-Hand squeezes front to back (Don't think about squeezing with your finger tips, think about pulling on the front strap of the grip and pulling it straight back into your palm. Subtle but can make a difference)
-This hand should NOT be white knuckle gripping the gun. Think ~50% grip pressure.

Support Hand:
-Wrist rotated forward, locked out or as close to it as possible
-Thumb will be pointed downrange
-Fingers will be at a 45 degree downward angle
-Wrap all 4 fingers around the primary hand, TIGHT up under the trigger guard (don't put the index finger on the triggerguard, does absolutely nothing for recoil control)
-Rotate the base of your thumb up as high as you can get it on the grip. Focus on clamping the base of your thumb into the highest part of the grip/frame that you can. (The more you rotate your hand, the more your wrist locks out, the straighter your support arm becomes, the higher you get on the gun = maximum recoil control + consistency)
-Your thumb will now be pointing forward. Gun hand thumb can come to rest on the back of your support thumb, and for guns where you have interference with the slide release or decocker, you can use your gun hand thumb to "grab" the base of your thumb bone/palm area.


Cliff Notes:
-Empty hands, no gun, try this for demo to start getting the feel of this grip
-Make a "V" with both of your hands.
-Point both thumbs at the target (Thumbs will be straight, both wrists locked or nearly locked out, fingers at 45 deg to the ground)
-Close 3 bottom fingers on the gun hand, index finger straight (Hey, getting some trigger index practice!)
-Wrap 4 support fingers around the 3 gun hand fingers (think of gripping a gun grip)
-Clamp support hand down on gun hand. Think about clamping base of thumb into the extended gun hand index finger

If you did this right, you end up in a close to good upper body stance that should resemble some form of Isosceles. You end up close to how you'd want to grip the gun in thumbs forward. This pretty much gets your whole upper body stance 80-90% of the way to where you'd want to get it, and the rest will depend on your own unique physiology.

Golden nugget:

The support hand wrist is crucial to achieving the performance improvements with thumbs forward. Little differences here make a huge difference with everything else. What helps you get close to ideal is how you think about it. Think about rotating the wrist forward as far as you can without causing significant discomfort. More importantly, think about clamping the base of your support thumb into the highest point of the grip that you can. The more you rotate that wrist forward towards being locked out, the higher it brings the base of that thumb. Most people want to squeeze side to side with their whole support hand, and they usually do it 1-3" lower on the grip. Instead of thinking about squeezing side to side, mentally tell yourself that support hand is a C clamp, and you are clamping the base of the support thumb into the top, side of the grip. That subtle difference in how you squeeze, as well as that 1/2" to 1" difference in height of the support hand on the grip is what makes all the difference in the world with recoil control on semi autos.

Here's some pics:

tn_8 by Dillo Dynamics, on Flickr

tn_9 by Dillo Dynamics, on Flickr

tn_41 by Dillo Dynamics, on Flickr

tn_18 by Dillo Dynamics, on Flickr


Important Note!

Here's how a significant number of people shoot thumbs forward, or start out shooting it. This gets you ~75-85% of the performance. Notice the difference? The first pics are support wrist locked out and as aggressive as possible (for me at least, everyone is different). This picture is with the support wrist backed off about 15-25 degrees (I'm guesstimating). THAT is the distinction I'm trying to make here. That few degrees of difference makes a huge difference in recoil control. Thanks Rob for being the guinea pig for these pics. We'll get that grip tweaked yet!

tn_30 by Dillo Dynamics, on Flickr

And here's what I mean by grabbing the back of the thumb bone/base of palm if you have issues with your gun hand thumb interfering with the slide release or decocker:

 

[midnightyell]

Sig_Fiend handing out the goodies pro bono? Is this a "First taste is free, then you gotta buy." deal?
I hear tactical pistol classes are more addictive than bath salts…


"Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils." - Maj. Gen. John Stark (1728-1822)

 

[M. Sage]

Sig_Fiend handing out the goodies pro bono? Is this a "First taste is free, then you gotta buy." deal?
I hear tactical pistol classes are more addictive than bath salts…


"Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils." - Maj. Gen. John Stark (1728-1822)

LOL!

All joking aside, Travis is more dedicated to teaching people how to shoot than he is to making money at it. One of the marks of a good teacher.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

Sig_Fiend handing out the goodies pro bono? Is this a "First taste is free, then you gotta buy." deal?
I hear tactical pistol classes are more addictive than bath salts…


"Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils." - Maj. Gen. John Stark (1728-1822)

Tactical pistol class while ON bath salts! Now there's something interesting! LOL j/k

I'm not "giving away" anything. This is all free info, readily available out there. I've taken my fair share of professional classes and instructor level classes (not nearly enough IMO, at least not nearly as many as I would like), but to be entirely honest, I've picked up the vast majority of my knowledge by learning outside of class on my own, then testing those theories through training, competition, etc. to see what validates. I picked this mindset up from Paul Gomez which I value over everything else; learning how to learn. I miss him dearly.

At the end of the day, people still have to put in the work. Nothing good comes without earning it.

 

[coboblack]

Good shootin, but what are clips?

MAGAZINES!!! lol

 

[coboblack]

LOL, who says putting your thumbs forward is a fad? Better recoil control is a "fad"!?

Are these the same people who swear that those "finicky, complicated, unreliable" semi auto pistols are a fad?

There are a lot of people who say it, I dont agree with it. But I said it out of fairness.

In all seriousness, +1 to keeping your finger off the trigger guard. The fingers of your support hand should all be a "blade", with the heel of that hand filling the void that your trigger hand leaves on the grip. Grip as high as possible, cant the support hand forward so if you let go and straighten it, you make a straight line down the top of your forearm and thumb. Run the support hand index finger to the bottom of the trigger guard. Slightly more pressure from teh support hand, but you really don't have to grip all that hard if you're doing this right. Support thumb straight forward, and trigger hand thumb on the outside of the support thumb's knuckle to keep it from interfering with your pistol's slide catch. Lean forward at the waist (nose in front of toes), back straight, chest square to target, elbows out (not down!!!), extend equally on both sides and kill the shit out of that target. No need to lock the elbows, if they're pointed out, the recoil will just push straight back. Pointing elbows down gives the gun a hinge for muzzle flip...

The main name of this game is recoil control, but I do pretty well against shotgun hulls laying on the 25 yard berm shooting like this.

Thanks brother, great advice.

Again, if it's a fad (it's been around for better than a decade), then I don't know anything about anything.

I'm trying to be politically correct, seems to be a few stubborn bulls in this barn. Trying to avoid any unnecessary drama. Looks like I failed =P

 

[coboblack]

Grip method doesn't affect accuracy. The only thing the grip method affects is how you manage the recoil. People can shoot accurately, and shoot well enough with a number of different grip methods. The thumbs forward grip is physiologically more effective in that it allows for an increased level of recoil control as well as more consistent recoil control (consistency is everything when shooting at speed).

When I said accuracy, I mean accuracy while shooting rapidly. I should of clarified that. I'm all for thumbs forward, I had to do it naturally anyway and found it being top be a lot of respectable marksmen. (But like anything, if I talked about it anywhere, you get these olds chools who talk crap and disagree and blah blah blah..wanted to avoid it if possible and just get some good information)

Old school grip methods like thumb over thumb are alright, and you can still probably achieve ~75% of the performance, but that will be the significant limiting factor when shooting at speed. Thumbs forward can allow you to shoot as well as you possibly can, gaining that extra performance. The question: Is "alright" good enough when you are talking about your life? To me, it isn't.



Some facts:

-Rob Leatham and Brian Enos invented the "thumbs forward" grip back ~1986
-As of now, there are no known national or international level competitors shooting with anything other than a general thumbs forward grip on semi autos (many use it for revolvers as well). I say general because there are minor variations on it, and a number of national/international level competitors use different variations, though they still stick to most of the basics of thumbs forward.

That's 26 years of the top people in the country, as well as the world using the same basic grip method. It's not just competition shooters. All top level schools in the country teach some variation of thumbs forward. All the different branches of US Military Special Operations that I know of teach some variation of the thumbs forward. That says a lot. It's not good to get "stuck" on techniques, and who knows, maybe the thumbs forward will be superseded by something even more effective at managing recoil. Until then, the performance speaks for itself.

Agreed