There is more to fighting and self-defense than shooting well.

[breakingcontact]

I took a weapon retention and disarming class today.

The class was pretty good. I know taking a class here and there and dabbling a bit in martial arts doesn't make a person proficient. What is does make me, in this regard, is humbled.

If you are a close quarters weapon fighting guru, feel free to contribute. If you already know these things, terrific. This is an honest assessment of my thoughts after the class and I hope this causes others to consider the same, if they have not already done so. Feel free to add/contribute/ask questions.

What I usually take away from classes and training are some thoughts about how I do things, more than the specific skills taught in the class. If you don't practice those fine skills, they will be lost, but thinking about how I train, how I carry my gear, and how I handle altercations stays with me.

Dealing with someone grabbing your (blue) gun is not something for which most of us normally train. I know 99% of the time I'm at the range or dry firing in the garage, not thinking about someone trying to disarm me and how I'd react. Same with trying to disarm someone who has a striking object, knife or gun. There is more to it than just grabbing the weapon.

The other things I really took away from the class are how close most altercations typically are. Someone with a knife can do an incredible amount of damage in a hurry if they are in close. As much as I enjoy shooting IDPA or hitting the range, this class has encouraged me to start training more with 5 yards, within 3 yards even. I need to practice shooting one handed more (including weak hand), shooting from the ground and shooting "tucked in", not arms fully extended.

Finally, the other style of hand to hand fighting that I've trained for (beginning level MMA, mostly boxing and grappling), emphasizes clinches and other very close in fighting. Also the pace is wildly different. Fighting someone with boxing gloves on a mat for 5 minutes or practicing hip tosses and other judo throws are very different from some junkie ambushing me on the street with a knife within just a few feet. We did a lot of drills to essentially knock the weapon away/redirect it and create some distance. This again was very different than trying to grapple. Just a totally different skill set and different pace.

I'm a pretty good shot and am decent at basic grappling, striking and wrestling. The immediate explosive action required to disarm, deflect or avoid a weapon when responding to a close quarters armed attack is really sitting with me tonight.

 

[TheDan]

Yeah I've pretty much made up my mind that if I'm attacked inside 3yrds I'm not even going to try to draw my gun. Forget grappling; this ain't mma. Go for the groin, throat, or eyes. I think it would have to be a snap judgement to continue attacking until they are completely incapacitated or try to get some distance and then draw. I hope to never find out. I'm certainly no expert and haven't been "jumped" since high school so I'm out of practice as well.

 

[breakingcontact]

Yeah I've pretty much made up my mind that if I'm attacked inside 3yrds I'm not even going to try to draw my gun. Forget grappling; this ain't mma. Go for the groin, throat, or eyes. I think it would have to be a snap judgement to continue attacking until they are completely incapacitated or try to get some distance and then draw. I hope to never find out. I'm certainly no expert and haven't been "jumped" since high school so I'm out of practice as well.

That difference in training (for different aims) was a real trip for me. Like with my leg positioning, instead of positioning to move and create distance, my first reaction was to position for a trip or throw. It was a very productive class.

 

[Gunns0902]

Where did you take a weapons retention class?

 

[breakingcontact]

Where did you take a weapons retention class?

Tactical Arts Academy in Austin.

 

[JohnnyLoco]

That difference in training (for different aims) was a real trip for me. Like with my leg positioning, instead of positioning to move and create distance, my first reaction was to position for a trip or throw. It was a very productive class.

Yeah, distance is usually your friend. Hip checks, hard pushes/palm strikes to the chest, anything to create space. Not sure if that was specifically covered. I know that most thugs like to get in close to you and sometimes like to invade your personal space before trying something. They may even try to act like they want to hug you or something stupid just so they can shank you.

Sounds like a good class.

 

[breakingcontact]

Yeah, distance is usually your friend. Hip checks, hard pushes/palm strikes to the chest, anything to create space. Not sure if that was specifically covered. I know that most thugs like to get in close to you and sometimes like to invade your personal space before trying something. They may even try to act like they want to hug you or something stupid just so they can shank you.

Sounds like a good class.

Oh for sure, I keep people out of my space when out on the street. I pay particular attention to our crazy/homeless folks in Austin.

What I'd really like to do is find a place with a class such as this that meets regularly and builds from one week to the next.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

Did you also train disarming an armed opponent or was it mostly retention?

 

[JohnnyLoco]

Finally, the other style of hand to hand fighting that I've trained for (beginning level MMA, mostly boxing and grappling), emphasizes clinches and other very close in fighting. Also the pace is wildly different. Fighting someone with boxing gloves on a mat for 5 minutes or practicing hip tosses and other judo throws are very different from some junkie ambushing me on the street with a knife within just a few feet. We did a lot of drills to essentially knock the weapon away/redirect it and create some distance. This again was very different than trying to grapple. Just a totally different skill set and different pace.

I learned early on that grappling and clinching, while maybe working well in the ring, are no-no's in a life or death encounter, which is essentially any encounter in the real world outside the schoolyard or backwoods party, places where many of us honed our fighting skills.

You want explosive power, speed, and incapacitating strikes then distance. I would say Judo throws are okay if and only if you are really good at it.

 

[breakingcontact]

Did you also train disarming an armed opponent or was it mostly retention?

Did both, about 50/50. Baton/big knife/Glock 17 blue gun

 

[breakingcontact]

I learned early on that grappling and clinching, while maybe working well in the ring, are no-no's in a life or death encounter, which is essentially any encounter in the real world outside the schoolyard or backwoods party, places where many of us honed our fighting skills.

You want explosive power, speed, and incapacitating strikes then distance. I would say Judo throws are okay if and only if you are really good at it.

Regarding any of the specific martial arts, I generally agree. You have to be top flight in order to really apply them.

As far as grappling or clinching not being good techniques, I disagree. You may find yourself in a clinch or on the ground. In close fighting is valuable, but I am now seeing where creating space can be important too. Even in the military it was all close in grab and strike/choke/stab training. But, that is training for different scenarios I suppose.

I'd really like to become proficient in how to truly fight dynamically, meaning applying the techniques and levels of force appropriate for a wide variety of threats.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

On the ground is a horrible place to find yourself.

 

[JohnnyLoco]

Regarding any of the specific martial arts, I generally agree. You have to be top flight in order to really apply them.

As far as grappling or clinching not being good techniques, I disagree. You may find yourself in a clinch or on the ground. In close fighting is valuable, but I am now seeing where creating space can be important too. Even in the military it was all close in grab and strike/choke/stab training. But, that is training for different scenarios I suppose.

I'd really like to become proficient in how to truly fight dynamically, meaning applying the techniques and levels of force appropriate for a wide variety of threats.

The military techniques are essentially for combat situations where the objective really is to kill the guy you're fighting and also it assumes things have gone really south if you are engaged in hand to hand combat.

There are a lot of things that no one really wants to teach paying students about brutal street fighting. Stuff you can read about in old books about what the most renowned brawlers could do to someone, like ripping eyeballs out, fish hooks, and worse.

 

[breakingcontact]

On the ground is a horrible place to find yourself.

Indeed...and also very likely.

 

[breakingcontact]

The military techniques are essentially for combat situations where the objective really is to kill the guy you're fighting and also it assumes things have gone really south if you are engaged in hand to hand combat.

There are a lot of things that no one really wants to teach paying students about brutal street fighting. Stuff you can read about in old books about what the most renowned brawlers could do to someone, like ripping eyeballs out, fish hooks, and worse.

Understood on both accounts.

 

[ROGER4314]

My sport was wrestling so close in is how I like to fight. If I had my choice, I'd like the opponent to attack from behind me. That's my ideal fight.

Research some of these techniques:
Shin rakes
Foot stomps
Elbows strikes aimed behind you
Forearm strikes to the face
45 degree offset thrust kicks to the knee
Back fists to side attackers head
Blows to the collar bone from above
slaps to the ears
Breaking thumbs
Push up with the fingers on the inside of the jaw about mid way. He'll let go. It hurts like Hell!
Rip the eyes
Rip the nose or cheeks

Groin kicks saved my life in Tulsa once but I don't usually use them. They are just too easy to block.

I converted "Sudo" strikes by curling my finger second joints inward so they are protected. It's ugly form but it's brutal.

In a clinch when you have both of the opponents arms secured (one in each hand), put one of his arms in the elbow crook of his other arm and push. When his elbow secures his other arm, smash him with your free hand.

Fighting two or more? Keep circling until you line them up (One blocks the other) Take out the first one and work your way down the line. Keep circling.

If an opponent rushes at you, don't back up. Circle him until his charge is exhausted.

What you described is the point where fighting converts to brawling. It takes a completely different attitude to bathe in another man's blood as you try to kill each other.

It's late. That's about all I can think of right now.

Flash

 

[Gunns0902]

Regarding any of the specific martial arts, I generally agree. You have to be top flight in order to really apply them.

As far as grappling or clinching not being good techniques, I disagree. You may find yourself in a clinch or on the ground. In close fighting is valuable, but I am now seeing where creating space can be important too. Even in the military it was all close in grab and strike/choke/stab training. But, that is training for different scenarios I suppose.

I'd really like to become proficient in how to truly fight dynamically, meaning applying the techniques and levels of force appropriate for a wide variety of threats.

That is not necessarily correct, it depends on the style and the training program....If you have a traditional training program, you will have to spend months/years on your form before you will learn how to apply what you have leaned, MMA(the other end of the spectrum) is all about application, krav maga I believe is the same.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

This is why I like a fixed blade that's readily available. More handy than a gun if you get surprised.

 

[breakingcontact]

So I wont be fighting ROGER anytime soon!

 

[breakingcontact]

That is not necessarily correct, it depends on the style and the training program....If you have a traditional training program, you will have to spend months/years on your form before you will learn how to apply what you have leaned, MMA(the other end of the spectrum) is all about application, krav maga I believe is the same.

Right. By specific I mean traditional. Thats what I was trying to say. Most of the modern forms are much more blended.