This Old Military Rifle

[kmcn762]

Carcano Modelo 1891 Truppe Speciali Carbine

Ah those goofy Italians, must have been a couple bottles of vino deep to come up with this one.

This here is yes another Carcano, but not one of the M1891 Carbines that are hot on the market right now. This is an M1891 Truppe Speciali Carbine, made in 1917 by Brescia. Another one for the WWI wall!

These carbines were meant for "special troops" such as artillery, engineers, machine gunners, Alpini troops, etc. that needed a smaller, more compact rifle that would not get in the way of their other duties.

These differed from the other M1891 Carbines, known today as the Calvary Carbines, as they do not have the permanently attached folding bayonet.

Other than that a a few small differences, these are still at heart a standard M1891 Carcano action: firing the 6.5x52mm cartridge from a 6-round en-bloc clip in a Mannlicher style action and magazine.

While it may look like most other Carcano Carbines, this one, or at least the bayonet is a little bit special. This example managed to escape the standardization effort in the 20's and still retains it's original bayonet lug. That's right, that weird sideways one that like no one has bayonets for.

Welp, a few months ago I managed to find one of those bayonets and now I finally have a home for it!

It also has a weird sideways latch with the button on the rear instead of the side like normal bayonets.

These bayonets are kinda hard to come by as most were scrapped or converted to the standardized style in the 20's too. Because of that they go for a pretty penny (relatively). This bayonet is worth more than the rifle it sits on!



The carbine is just one of the PW imports from Italy and has the nice FAT stamp on the stock.

Definitely seems to be one of the nicer imports. Great bore, stock in good shape, and even still has the cleaning rod. The T.S. Carbines have been long sold out and are now relegated to the realm of the most milsurps. Nabbed it off of GB for pretty cheap though. Definitely still some of the best deals in the milsurp market.

 

[V-Tach]

3 Line Rifle M1891

(Also known as Mosin’s Rifle in Russia and the Mosin-Nagant in the U.S.)



9 years in development (1892-1891), and eventually being produced in numbers exceeding 37 million rifles it is one of the most proliferated rifles in existence. It is still being used in wars/conflicts to present time.



Trials were held in 1889 and 3 rifles were tested. Mosin’s (a Captain in the Imperial Army) 3 line rifle, Leon Nagant’s 3.5 line rifle (Austria) and another Captain Zinoviev’s 3 line design. 1 Line = 2.54 mm. 3 Line = 7.62 mm. The rifle was formally adopted in 1891.

Mosin’s rifle was chosen, but Nagant filed a patent suit claiming he should also be paid for the winning design. He had borrowed from Mosin’s interrupter for his rifle and had filed for a patent. Mosin being an Officer of the Imperial Army was not allowed to file for a patent. Nagant was eventually awarded 200,000 Russian rubles. Later a couple of Nagants design (very minor) were incorporated into the 3 Line rifle and was officially designated Mosin’s rifle in 1924. Only in Western literature in the rifle called the Mosin-Nagant.



Manufacturers

Sestroryetsk, Tula, Izhevsk, Châtellerault (French), Westinghouse, Remington, Cugir (Romania) , Radom (Poland), Chinese, Finnish and Hungarian variants.



Variants:

1891 infantry rifle

Dragoon rifle

Cossack rifle

M1907 Carbine

M1891/30

M1938 Carbine

M1944 Carbine

M1891/59 Carbine



Other Countries having variants

Finland, Czechoslovakia, China, Hungary, Romania, Poland, United States



Specifications:

Weight: 8.8 lbs. (M91/30)

Length: 48.5 in. (91/30)

Barrel Length: 29 in. (91/30)

Calibers:

7.62X54 (7.62 Russian)

7.62X53R (Finnish only)

7.92X57 (Polish and German Captures)

8X50mmR Mannlicher (Hungarian Capture)


References: Wikipedia. open internet sources


Books:

​

 

[majormadmax]

3 Line Rifle M1891

(Also known as Mosin’s Rifle in Russia and the Mosin-Nagant in the U.S.)​

To be fair, the Mosin Nagant could (and should) have its own thread!

 

[Laufer]

WW2. New Zealand sniper at the terrible uphill battle for the huge old monastery complex at Monte Cassino Italy.

It's an Enfield #4/Mk. 1.

The look on his face always impresses me. We finally used aircraft to suppress the well-entrenched German fire.

 

[V-Tach]

Italian Carcano Moschetto (Carbine) Modello M91



The Carcano M91 history has been posted previously in this thread. This post will only cover this variant.



Adopted in 1893 as a variant for cavalry troops, it was issued to other troops as well.



Original M91 Moschetto rifles did not have an upper handguard but was added to existing rifles and new production rifles starting in 1916. All Moschetto M91’s have the integral bayonet.

Brescia, Terni, Beretta and Gardone Val Trompia all manufactured the Moschetto M91.



Moschetto M91 Specifications



In service from 1893-1981

Weight: 7lbs.

Length: 36 in.

Barrel Length: 17.7 in.

Caliber: 6.5X52 Carcano

Resources: Wikipedia, open internet sources



The Moschetto M91 is an inexpensive and fun addition to any collection. It is still commonly found for under $200…….

enbloc clips and ammo can be easily sourced

​

​

 

[V-Tach]

Spanish Destroyer Carbine



While not technically a military issued rifle. It deserves to be included in this thread by virtue of its use in the Spanish Civil War and it is hard to imagine that it was never used during WWII somewhere in the European Theatre.

Mitchell WerBell (Military Armament Corporation MAC/10 and MAC/11 and Sionics Suppressors) produced a few Destroyers chambered in .38 Super with suppressors and supplied them to the U.S. Army for use in Vietnam in the 60’s.

Exact history on the rifle beginnings is a little sketchy, but it is believed the rifle was designed in the 1920’s and initially built in Eibar Spain by Gaztanaga y Compania and eventually by Ayra Duria S.A. It is possible that others built Destroyers early in its history.

Spain has two police forces. The National police and the Guardia Civil. Both are Federal, not local police units like the U.S. has. The Guardia Civil roles would be similar to our Border Patrol, National Guard, and Coast Guard and is more military in nature. The standard issue handgun at the time (M1908 Bergman) was chambered in 9X23mm Largo. It was thought that a carbine utilizing the same round and magazines used in their pistols would be a good idea for not only the two police forces, but prison guards, factory guards, forestry guards and basically all government workers that were armed for their duties.

The Spanish military standard issue rifle at this time was the 1893 Mauser. Basically the Destroyer is a scaled down Mauser 1893 but with some differences. Early models did not have locking lugs on the bolts. They were eventually added, but to the rear of the bolt not the front as in the Mauser. The receiver and bolt in the Destroyer are cast, not forged and thus are not as strong and robust as Mausers.

The Destroyer is not known for its fine craftsmanship and in fact tolerances and specs can vary widely from rifle to rifle. In many cases firing pins, magazines and other parts were hand fitted to each rifle and not exactly interchangeable.

While all rimless 9mm ammo will chamber into the Destroyer it is extremely risky firing modern 9mm in this rifle because of the higher pressures. There were some late model Destroyers actually chambered in 9mm Luger/Parabellum and are marked as such for the export market. But, there are also some rifles that were modified with crude steel inserts to accept 9mm Parabellum that are not marked. In 1967 and 1968 rifles chambered in 38 ACP were also produced for the export market. 38 ACP should not be confused with 38 Super. Although identical in dimensions the 38 Super is a substantially higher pressure cartridge is dangerous to shoot in the Destroyer.

The rifle was issued from 1935-1969 and production ceased in 1976. There are no known production records but it is estimated by using serial numbers that approximately 40-50 thousand rifles were produced.

Although undoubtedly used during the Spanish Civil War 1936-1939, I was unable to find photos of it actually being used in the war. I believe it’s because anyone armed with a Destroyer immediately tossed it for the superior firepower of a Mauser rifle at their first opportunity.



Specifications:

Weight: 6 lbs.

Length: 40 in.

Barrel Length: 19.5 in.

Calibers: 9 X 23mm Largo, 9mm Parabellum (export) 38 ACP (export)



References, Wikipedia, Guns.COM, Military Wiki, open internet sources.

I did find one photo of a suppressed Destroyer........

 

[V-Tach]

Enfield No.5 Mk1

(Jungle Carbine)





The British military wanted a carbine of their own. Towards the end of WWII the need was apparent. The U.S. had the M1 carbine, Soviets the M44 and M38. In fact most other major Countries had carbines in use by their military except the Brits.

The No.5 Mk1 was their answer. Although the actual production life of the No.5 was very brief (just 3 years) it has become one of the most recognized rifles in the world.



Due to the cost of developing a new rifle and the fact they had millions of No.4 Mk1*’s already produced, it made sense to modify the No.4 Mk1*.

Modifications included: A shortened cut down stock (akin to many sporterized military rifles after WWII), Lightening cuts to the receiver, the barrel and the stock to remove as much un-necessary weight as possible and shortened the barrel to 18.8 inches which is free floated. They actually shaved off a full 2 lbs. from the No.4 Mk1*. The bolt handle is hollowed out. Because the carbine was using standard .303 Brit ammunition designed for longer barrels, muzzle flash was quite spectacular. To mitigate this they designed a flash hider/front sight which also had the bayonet lug attached. The butt plate was designed with a rubber insert to help with recoil from the little carbine. The rubber insert is hard not soft, so some shooters that are recoil sensitive may not like shooting the carbine. The rear sight is graduated to 800 yards not 1300 like the No.4’s.

Some Australian Mk III’s were prototyped into carbines by Australia as Model No. 6 Mk1 but were never put into production.



The bayonet was designed to fit the Sterling SMG and the No.5 Mk1 only. Early bayonet models only had one screw holding the grips with the 2nd model have two screws.



The carbines were issued to the 1st British Airborne Division during the liberation of Denmark and Norway in 1945. It also saw action in the Pacific Islands and Malaysia. Which most probably why it is called the jungle carbine. It also served in the Korean War.

It was quite popular with troops considering the “wandering zero” reputation that some rifles just won’t zero.







Beware….”The Fakes”……

There have been Importers/companies that have made and sold so called jungle carbines on the market that are simply cut down modified No.4 and Mk III rifles to simulate a No.5. There are several ways to identify the real No.5’s from the fakes.

1. The receiver left side will have: No5 Mk1 ROF and date of manufacture and serial number electro penciled on the receiver. Never No.4 or Mk III.

2. Only Fazakerley and BSA produced No.5’s

3. Cuts to the receiver to lighten it.

4. Cuts on the breech end of the barrel just forward of the threads also to shave weight.

5. The bolt handle is hollowed out.

5. The rear sight graduated to 800 yards not 1300….

6. Will only have a 4 digit serial number



Years of Production: 1944-1947

Years of Service 1944-1977

Total Production: Fazakerley 169,807 BSA 81,329

Specifications:

Weight: 7 lbs. 1 oz.

Length: 39.5 inches

Barrel Length: 18.8 inches

Caliber: .303 British



References: Wikipedia, David Tong, TFB, Open Internet Sources



Books:

​

All No.5's have this cut on the receiver

My rifle was made August 1945 just before the War ended......

The other receiver cut all No. 5's have

All real Jungle Carbines have these barrel cuts....

 

[rl96ss]

Some Swiss rifles: from top to bottom - Schmidt - Rubin 1911 carbine (K11), Model 31 (K31) and lastly Schmidt-Rubin
1911 rifle.

All chambered in 7.5x55 Swiss and equipped with 6 round detachable magazines.

Barrel lengths

K11 - 23.3 in
K31 - 25.6 in
1911 - 30.7 in









The K31 was purchased from a member here on the forum. Upgrading through years, I've owned at least three K31s ending with this one. Easily the nicest one

 

[V-Tach]

Some Swiss rifles: from top to bottom - Schmidt - Rubin 1911 carbine (K11), Model 31 (K31) and lastly Schmidt-Rubin
1911 rifle.

All chambered in 7.5x55 Swiss and equipped with 6 round detachable magazines.

Barrel lengths

K11 - 23.3 in
K31 - 25.6 in
1911 - 30.7 in









The K31 was purchased from a member here on the forum. Upgrading through years, I've owned at least three K31s ending with this one. Easily the nicest one

Absolutely gorgeous.......

Have you ever found anything under the butt plates?

I put a personal note to my DIL under the plate of the Browning 22 I reworked for her....I didn't tell her about it, either...

Edit: For those that didn't know.....many Swiss put their name and information under the butt plates of their rifles...

 

[rl96ss]

Absolutely gorgeous.......

Have you ever found anything under the butt plates?

I put a personal note to my DIL under the plate of the Browning 22 I reworked for her....I didn't tell her about it, either...

I do not believe I have looked for troop tags on these.
Have had a K31 in the past with one.
Nice touch on your DIL's rifle and excellent job restoring it!

 

[kmcn762]

My own little Evolution der Mauser
​

Over the years I've ended up acquiring a nice glimpse of how the Mauser rifle evolved over the late 19th century.

From left to right we have:

• Belgian Model 1889/16
• Argentine Model 1891
• Ottoman Model 1893/33
• Swedish Model 1896
• German Gewehr 1898
• Kar98k (1935)

Major differences between each model:

• 1889 -> 1891: Removed the barrel jacket and added a top handguard
• 1891 -> 1893: Now utilizes a flush, double stack magazine, redesigned bolt with the famous full length extractor, controlled feed, and a modified clip and guide. Still chambered in the 7.65 cartridge originally (this one is re-chambered for 8mm)
• 1893 -> 1895 (not pictured): A raised nub was added behind the bolt handle to act as a third safety lug and the bolt face was changed from a squared bottom to rounded.
• 1893 -> 1896 : The 1896 is mostly based on the 1893 with only a few different features requested by the Swedes such as a new 6.5 cartridge, knurled striker, thumb cut receiver, modified sights, different bayonet lug, and different safety. The 1894 carbine actually came first with most of these changes which is backwards from the way most countries adopted firearms.
• 1893 -> 1898: Another complete bolt redesign adding several safety features, increasing locking strength and now using a cock-on-open system, a new I-beam bayonet lug, and H-style front barrel band among other changes, as well as being chambered in the 8mm cartridge. The German Gewehr 1898 also featured the infamous Langevizier "rollercoaster" rear sights, while other export models such as the Brazilian 1908 did not.
• 1898 -> 98k: I'm skipping over a few models here but basically the Germans settled on a carbine or short rifle after the use of the Kar98a in WWI and abandon the larger, complex rear sight, and adopted a new sling system (from the Kar 88). This would be the last major change of the Mauser design by the Germans.

This is just a brief overview of the rifles that I happen to own. There is a whole massive world of Mausers out there to learn about. Check out C&Rsenal or the Milsurp World channel for some more in depth and informative videos. Thanks for looking!

 

[V-Tach]

My own little Evolution der Mauser
​

Over the years I've ended up acquiring a nice glimpse of how the Mauser rifle evolved over the late 19th century.

View attachment 349160

From left to right we have:

• Belgian Model 1889/16
• Argentine Model 1891
• Ottoman Model 1893/33
• Swedish Model 1896
• German Gewehr 1898
• Kar98k (1935)

Major differences between each model:

• 1889 -> 1891: Removed the barrel jacket and added a top handguard
• 1891 -> 1893: Now utilizes a flush, double stack magazine, redesigned bolt with the famous full length extractor, controlled feed, and a modified clip and guide. Still chambered in the 7.65 cartridge originally (this one is re-chambered for 8mm)
• 1893 -> 1895 (not pictured): A raised nub was added behind the bolt handle to act as a third safety lug.
• 1893 -> 1896 : The 1896 is mostly based on the 1893 with only a few different features requested by the Swedes such as a new 6.5 cartridge, knurled striker, thumb cut receiver, modified sights, different bayonet lug, and different safety. The 1894 carbine actually came first with most of these changes which is backwards from the way most countries adopted firearms.
• 1893 -> 1898: Another complete bolt redesign adding several safety features, increasing locking strength and now using a cock-on-open system, a new I-beam bayonet lug, and H-style front barrel band among other changes, as well as being chambered in the 8mm cartridge. The German Gewehr 1898 also featured the infamous Langevizier "rollercoaster" rear sights, while other export models such as the Brazilian 1908 did not.
• 1898 -> 98k: I'm skipping over a few models here but basically the Germans settled on a carbine or short rifle after the use of the Kar98a in WWI and abandon the larger, complex rear sight, and adopted a new sling system (from the Kar 88). This would be the last major change of the Mauser design by the Germans.

This is just a brief overview of the rifles that I happen to own. There is a whole massive world of Mausers out there to learn about. Check out C&Rsenal or the Milsurp World channel for some more in depth and informative videos. Thanks for looking!

Excellent!

Interesting information.....German Mausers are the one part of my collection that is sorely lacking..............

 

[rl96ss]

Swedish Ljungman (Ag m42b)

Sweden’s first standard issue semi-auto rifle.

Chambered in 6.5x55 and operated by direct gas impengment.

Barrel length - 24.5 in with a 10 round detachable magazine and can also fed by stripper clips.








Some much needed improvements were made from original design of the Ag m42.

A stainless steel gas tube, two nubbs to pull the action back, elevation knob for the rear sight and a rubber case deflector
Amongst some other minor changes.



After the changes the "b" was added making it the Ag42mb.



Swedish m/41 - Berdan primed, 140gr Spitzer bullet 6.5x55 ammo designed for the Swedish m/41 and Ag m/42 Ljungman rifles.

Good stuff!




Cleaning kit/spare parts and front sight set.




Bayonet







Later on the design was sold to Egypt where they manufactured the Hakim chambered in 8mm Mauser (7.92×57) and the Rashid or Rasheed carbine in 7.62x39 with adjustable gas settings.

Pictured with Rashid on top and Hakim on bottom.




Rashid

Barrel length - 20in
Caliber - 7.62×39
Detachable 10rd magazine and can also be fed by stripper clips.




Charging handle added from original Swede design.



AK/SKS style attached bayonet.




Hakim already excellently covered by V-Tach earlier in thread.

 

[V-Tach]

Been looking for a Rashid for a while....with them now fetching 1K++ has been holding me back.....

but....................it's only money.....................

Nice pics btw..............


Passed on a CZ 52 (SHE) a couple of gun shows ago....it had the black krinkle finish and was missing the bayonet

 

[tekiwap]

Swedish Ljungman (Ag m42b)

Sweden’s first standard issue semi-auto rifle.

Chambered in 6.5x55 and operated by direct gas impengment.

Barrel length - 24.5 in with a 10 round detachable magazine and can also fed by stripper clips.








Some much needed improvements were made from original design of the Ag m42.

A stainless steel gas tube, two nubbs to pull the action back, elevation knob for the rear sight and a rubber case deflector
Amongst some other minor changes.



After the changes the "b" was added making it the Ag42mb.



Swedish m/41 - Berdan primed, 140gr Spitzer bullet 6.5x55 ammo designed for the Swedish m/41 and Ag m/42 Ljungman rifles.

Good stuff!




Cleaning kit/spare parts and front sight set.




Bayonet







Later on the design was sold to Egypt where they manufactured the Hakim chambered in 8mm Mauser (7.92×57) and the Rashid or Rasheed carbine in 7.62x39 with adjustable gas settings.

Pictured with Rashid on top and Hakim on bottom.




Rashid

Barrel length - 20in
Caliber - 7.62×39
Detachable 10rd magazine and can also be fed by stripper clips.




Charging handle added from original Swede design.



AK/SKS style attached bayonet.




Hakim already excellently covered by V-Tach earlier in thread.

Aren't they based on the G43? The actions surely look that way. Or, vice versa?

 

[zackmars]

Aren't they based on the G43? The actions surely look that way. Or, vice versa?

The G43 was based off the SVT series, and has noting in common with the AG 42

Even then the AG 42 pre dates the G43

 

[Laufer]

Sgt. Alvin C. York, of TN, used an M 1917 (and a 1911) on the day when he earned the Medal of Honour.


Did approx. 25-30% of US troops in WW1 use the M 1917, instead of the much more famous Springfield ?

 

[zackmars]

Sgt. Alvin C. York, of TN, used an M 1917 (and a 1911) on the day when he earned the Medal of Honour.


Did approx. 25-30% of US troops in WW1 use the M 1917, instead of the much more famous Springfield ?

I thought is was along the lines of 50-60%. M1903 production was pitifully slow

 

[jbayless71]

My favorite Swede. This is serial number 185 of the 5,000 M94 carbines Mauser made for Sweden before Gustaf took over making them.

 

[rl96ss]

Nice one jbayless!! Don't see many of those and their value shows it.