Ukraine War and Politics

[benenglish]

This thread one of two new ones dedicated to the Ukraine war. It's a place to talk (Respectfully, please!) about the whys and wherefores, the forces behind the decisions, and the rightness or wrongness of the actions and words of those involved, including other participants on this forum.

If it devolves to the level of mudslinging that characterized the previous thread, well, as I've said elsewhere, I expect to be forced to hand out bans. They may be short or permanent or anywhere in between but the level of useless noise and heartbreaking vitriol found in the old thread will no longer be tolerated. The "if you just want to insult people" rule is in full effect here, much more so than normal.

I hate to have to take this action but, frankly, I'm torn. The subject is important. Y'all have useful insights. BUT y'all are going to have find a way to just get along.

Understood?

BTW - The other thread is here.

 

[wiredgeorge]

So this is the thread about complaints on US spending and conspiracy theories?

 

[benenglish]

So this is the thread about complaints on US spending and conspiracy theories?

If people are so inclined as to discuss those things and their nexus with Ukraine, yes, this is the place.

 

[1911'S 4 Me]

I quit reading the other thread because of the mudslinging and b/s.

 

[benenglish]

I quit reading the other thread because of the mudslinging and b/s.

So don't bother with this thread and go here. I'm kinda hoping everyone does so.

 

[Havok1]

So don't bother with this thread and go here. I'm kinda hoping everyone does so.

If you don’t want people to post here, why bother with the thread?

 

[cycleguy2300]

If you don’t want people to post here, why bother with the thread?

Because sometimes people recognize a need for others despite their own desires

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[BigRed]

If you don’t want people to post here, why bother with the thread?

So the bigger issues can be discussed!

 

[BigRed]

Cross posted from another thread that could likely be shut down:

Through June 23, it looks like around $115,000,000,000 has been spent.

How much money has the US given Ukraine?​

The US has allocated nearly $115 billion toward the conflict in Ukraine since February of 2022.

usafacts.org



Earlier this week, obiden pushed for another $23,000,000,000 for Ukraine or roughly another 20% of what has already been handed over.

Biden asks Congress for $40 billion to support Ukraine, replenish US disaster aid and bolster border​

The requested package also includes $12 billion to replenish the U.S. federal disaster funds at home after a deadly climate season of heat and storms, and funds to bolster enforcement at the Southe…

www.bostonherald.com



Much of this is with little to no accountability regarding how the money of American taxpayers is being spent or where it is going....

America's billions in aid to Ukraine isn’t charity, but it can't be wasted​

This op-ed by Sen. John Kennedy (R-La.) and Kyrsten Sinema (I-Ariz.) first appeared in USA Today on June 2, 2023. The Ukrainian military is gearing up for a spring offensive fueled by two recent allocations from President Joe Biden totaling $675 million. We hope this funding will help Ukraine...

www.kennedy.senate.gov



Question:

How much should American taxpayers be forced to render to Ukraine?

 

[benenglish]

If you don’t want people to post here, why bother with the thread?

Because some people cannot bring themselves to discuss the Ukraine war without bringing in all sort of speculation about motives, conspiracy theories, and other stupid shit. This thread provides a place for that without polluting the thread that's actually about the war, the happenings on the battlefield.

We tried for a very long time to have one thread about Ukraine. The people who wanted to talk about the war provided good information. The people who wanted to find ways to tie domestic politics and every other damn thing on their mind to the war in Ukraine polluted that thread with so much mudslinging that the signal-to-noise ratio became unsustainable.

So we're trying something. Noise in this thread; news in the other thread.

It's an experiment. In a couple of weeks, we'll know if it was worth doing.

 

[benenglish]

How much should American taxpayers be forced to render to Ukraine?

THIS!!!!...is how politics should be discussed where the Ukraine war is involved. You cited some sources and asked a reasonable question.

Thank you! I pray you're setting the tone for this thread.

 

[Havok1]

Because some people cannot bring themselves to discuss the Ukraine war without bringing in all sort of speculation about motives, conspiracy theories, and other stupid shit. This thread provides a place for that without polluting the thread that's actually about the war, the happenings on the battlefield.

We tried for a very long time to have one thread about Ukraine. The people who wanted to talk about the war provided good information. The people who wanted to find ways to tie domestic politics and every other damn thing on their mind to the war in Ukraine polluted that thread with so much mudslinging that the signal-to-noise ratio became unsustainable.

So we're trying something. Noise in this thread; news in the other thread.

It's an experiment. In a couple of weeks, we'll know if it was worth doing.

Makes sense. I’d just think that in that case you would want people to post here. I’ll be curious to see how it works out though.

 

[BigRed]

Big Governments’ One-Two Punch: Scope Creep, Then Wartime Deprivation | James Anthony

Voluntary cooperation gets commandeered by the government gradually in peacetime, then suddenly through war. Peace, then World War I Starting in 1894, the USA no longer had a small-government major party.

mises.org

 

[Havok1]

Question:

How much should American taxpayers be forced to render to Ukraine?

None. If funding the war was truly popular then donations would be pouring in to cover all the costs. But they aren’t, and we don’t have the money to give, and there is no real way of knowing the extent of the secondary effects this has had on our military’s readiness.

 

[cycleguy2300]

None. If funding the war was truly popular then donations would be pouring in to cover all the costs. But they aren’t, and we don’t have the money to give, and there is no real way of knowing the extent of the secondary effects this has had on our military’s readiness.

When I was there there were insane amounts of non-governmental supplies being donated. Millions upon millions of dollars worth... there were PHDs in Industrial Distribution (Americans) who had come over to help get things moved. One of the jobs a friend of mine fell into was as a match maker. Finding people who had needs and finding people with the things and getting them in touch.

On many of our "off" days from training, several of us would go to a warehouse (donated space) and unload donated medical supplies.

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[BigRed]

None. If funding the war was truly popular then donations would be pouring in to cover all the costs. But they aren’t, and we don’t have the money to give, and there is no real way of knowing the extent of the secondary effects this has had on our military’s readiness.

I concur.

Hell, here in the States we are not even taking care of our own vets...yet there is plenty of plundered treasure to piss away on this nonsense with little to no accountability.

 

[BigRed]

When I was there there were insane amounts of non-governmental supplies being donated. Millions upon millions of dollars worth... there were PHDs in Industrial Distribution (Americans) who had come over to help get things moved. One of the jobs a friend of mine fell into was as a match maker. Finding people who had needs and finding people with the things and getting them in touch.

On many of our "off" days from training, several of us would go to a warehouse (donated space) and unload donated medical supplies.

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That's good news.

There should be no limit to what folks want to give of their own free will.

 

[Havok1]

When I was there there were insane amounts of non-governmental supplies being donated. Millions upon millions of dollars worth... there were PHDs in Industrial Distribution (Americans) who had come over to help get things moved. One of the jobs a friend of mine fell into was as a match maker. Finding people who had needs and finding people with the things and getting them in touch.

On many of our "off" days from training, several of us would go to a warehouse (donated space) and unload donated medical supplies.

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I bet. And if people/companies/organizations want to put their money toward that, then I think that’s great. However keep in mind that “millions upon millions” is still likely only a fraction a percent of our tax spending.

 

[cycleguy2300]

Pretty interesting...

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[BigRed]

Pretty interesting...

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As usual, I was not "polled".