Utah CFP and Texas LTC Reciprocity and FFL Transfers

[Renegade]

I wish you much better luck than I've had figuring this out.
Personally, I just do what I do and not worry about it.

@General Zod - just because you leave your LTC card at home doesn't mean you're not a license holder.

Generally, you are not carrying under authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, if you are not carrying your license.

Sec. 30.07. TRESPASS BY LICENSE HOLDER WITH AN OPENLY CARRIED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
(1) openly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent;

 

[MountainGirl]

But it does mean you're carrying without a license - which was touted as one of the benefits of the new law. Should your wallet be stolen or left at home, you're no longer committing a felony by carrying a firearm.

Sorry, not buying it. Stolen/left at home license does not undo one being an LTC. That said, IF, under the new law it did as you suggest - then all the signage laws are invalid.

 

[MountainGirl]

Business Name	Category	Address	City	Type	Location	Valid	Comments	Date	Username
Florida's Kitchen Map Report	Restaurant	796 FM 350 S	Livingston	30.07 Sign	Front door	No	Lettering too small. 2 additional comments	2016-08-25	nunya

Thanks for that!
I clicked on the '2 additional comments' and it went to a TGT thread no longer available.
So... Florida's has a sign but it's not valid. Ohhhkay.

 

[oldwisemonk]

Sorry, not buying it. Stolen/left at home license does not undo one being an LTC. That said, IF, under the new law it did as you suggest - then all the signage laws are invalid.

Wouldn't be surprised if there are a few lawsuits before there is greater clarification. Right now, it feels like a private business would be encouraged to post all three--30.05, 30.06, and 30.07--if they wanted to be "gun free."

 

[MountainGirl]

Generally, you are not carrying under authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, if you are not carrying your license.

Sec. 30.07. TRESPASS BY LICENSE HOLDER WITH AN OPENLY CARRIED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
(1) openly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent;

Thanks for that - and it makes no sense whatsoever.
I'm a licensed driver - whether I left my DL at home or not.
I'm Licensed to Carry - whether I left my LTC card home or not.
What am I missing?

 

[Renegade]

Sorry, not buying it. Stolen/left at home license does not undo one being an LTC. That said, IF, under the new law it did as you suggest - then all the signage laws are invalid.

Foillowing is Sec. 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. Note if you are not carrying your license, you do NOT get Sec. 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. You are subject to arrest and conviction, even though you may be licensed.


(b) Sections 46.02, 46.03(a)(14), and 46.04(a-1) do not apply to a person who:

(6) is carrying:
(A) a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a handgun; and
(B) a handgun:

What am I missing?

The law I posted above which actually states you must be in possession of your license.

 

[Renegade]

Wouldn't be surprised if there are a few lawsuits before there is greater clarification. Right now, it feels like a private business would be encouraged to post all three--30.05, 30.06, and 30.07--if they wanted to be "gun free."

Correct, you have to post all three.

 

[General Zod]

Foillowing is Sec. 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. Note if you are not carrying your license, you do NOT get Sec. 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. You are subject to arrest and conviction, even though you may be licensed.


(b) Sections 46.02, 46.03(a)(14), and 46.04(a-1) do not apply to a person who:

(6) is carrying:
(A) a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a handgun; and
(B) a handgun:



The law I posted above which actually states you must be in possession of your license.

Section 46.15 is about carrying a handgun in a time of disaster. How does it apply to the current discussion?

Penal Code §46.15: Carrying a Handgun During a State of Disaster​

Texas Penal Code §46.15(k) and (l) relate to carrying a handgun during a state of disaster.

• Section 46.15(k):This section states that Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who carries a handgun:
  • While being required to evacuate from a disaster area or returning to the area after being evacuated and...
  • If no more than 168 hours have passed since the state of disaster was declared and...
  • If the person is not prohibited by state or federal law from possessing a firearm.
• Section 46.15(l):This section provides that certain places where the carrying of a handgun is usually prohibited does not apply if:
  • The premises is operating as an emergency shelter during a state of disaster and...
  • The owner, controller, operator, or person of apparent authority authorized the carrying of a handgun in the shelter and...
  • The person carrying the handgun complies with the rules and regulations of the owner, controller, or operator of the premises and...
  • The person is not prohibited by state or federal law from possessing a firearm.

 

[General Zod]

Never mind -the result I found was focused on two specific parts of that statute.

 

[MountainGirl]

Foillowing is Sec. 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. Note if you are not carrying your license, you do NOT get Sec. 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. You are subject to arrest and conviction, even though you may be licensed.


(b) Sections 46.02, 46.03(a)(14), and 46.04(a-1) do not apply to a person who:

(6) is carrying:
(A) a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a handgun; and
(B) a handgun:



The law I posted above which actually states you must be in possession of your license.

Wow. So to confirm I understand this -
If I drive without my DL in hand, I can be ticketed for not having it with me -
But if I carry without my LTC - I'm deemed to not even having an LTC.
Is that right?

 

[Renegade]

deleted

 

[General Zod]

46.15 is NONAPPLICABILITY

Wherever you copied that from is only qoting a small section of 46.15

I recommend viewing the actual statutes

https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/

As I mentioned in the very next post:

Never mind -the result I found was focused on two specific parts of that statute.

 

[Renegade]

Wow. So to confirm I understand this -
If I drive without my DL in hand, I can be ticketed for not having it with me -
But if I carry without my LTC - I'm deemed to not even having an LTC.
Is that right?

pretty much.

When law was passed there was huge emphasis to require carrying of license to make it easy for LE to ascertain who is licensed and who is not.

You also had to have a DL in your possession too,

Sec. 411.205. REQUIREMENT TO DISPLAY LICENSE. If a license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder display identification, the license holder shall display:
(1) both the license holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the department and the license holder's handgun license; and

 

[toddnjoyce]

I've never (to my knowledge) been charged for a background check. Not sure that's a thing here. As for transfer fee discounts, that may be something some FFL's do to encourage folks to have carry licenses…..

I think some conflate the background check with the transfer fee.

As an LTC holder, I’ve always paid one fee…transfer fee, whether the FFL honored the LTC fast lane option or not for the 4473.

 

[General Zod]

So the unlicensed carry law was sold partially on a lie - that it would protect licensed carriers who might for whatever reason not have their license in their posession. Imagine my surprise.

 

[Renegade]

I think some conflate the background check with the transfer fee.

As an LTC holder, I’ve always paid one fee…transfer fee, whether the FFL honored the LTC fast lane option or not for the 4473.

I think Utah is one of several states that does their own BGC and charges a fee for it.

 

[Renegade]

So the unlicensed carry law was sold partially on a lie - that it would protect licensed carriers who might for whatever reason not have their license in their posession. Imagine my surprise.

It does protect them a little bit.

Under old system you carry to say movie theater (no signs), with LTC you are OK. without LTC you are illegal.

Under Permit less carry, LTC forgets his license, he still is legal in said movie theater.



The LIE was the claim we would not lose carry rights elsewhere, we did.

 

[toddnjoyce]

So the unlicensed carry law was sold partially on a lie - that it would protect licensed carriers who might for whatever reason not have their license in their posession. Imagine my surprise.

Eh, 411.205 hasn’t had a penalty attached to it in years…2017, I think that change happened.

The ‘protection’ is that in most locations, it doesn’t matted if you have an LTC or not.

 

[MountainGirl]

So getting back to this (Only because in 2 weeks, 20 of us will be at Florida's and this is what they have posted also, albeit an invalid one)

To walk through the door 'legally' - If we're LTC, then we can either
1. Conceal carry, or,
2. Leave our LTC card in the truck and open carry.

Yes? No?

****
@oldwisemonk : now you see why I just do what I do and not worry one way or the other.

 

[Renegade]

As I mentioned in the very next post:

Was already typing out response and did not see it.

deleted now