Is there any hope if we remain "One Nation"?

[winchster]

I'm gonna break this one up a little bit and attempt to answer each bit a little more clearly.




I think most of the intense stuff had to do with forcing soldiers to deal with adversity. Setting impossible standards we learn to drive on under stress even when reason says there is little or no chance of accomplishing the goal, but you still dig in and give it everything you got. Other situations help you learn to think under stress, not just run around like a chicken with your head cut off. Lots of teamwork oriented stuff too. The bonding is there, but how much consideration was given to make it a bonding experience....who knows. I feel it's somewhat of a useful by-product.



Two very different conflicts fought for very different reasons. I see there was much more room for debate on whether or not the loss of life was justified. There was also a lot more societal change in the works at the time. I'm sure there are some who have devoted decades to studying the changes that were taking place in this country from 1945-1970, and up to present day. I just don't have enough knowledge on that timeline to pin point all of the catalysts that brought us to out current state. I do believe steps taken during the great depression had a large effect in pushing us towards our current course.




I'm not sure that there are more bad choices, but I agree that they are easier to make. Historically, our military was the militia. Our standing Army has pretty much been volunteer since it's creation afaik. The draft was and still is a requirement in order to exercise certain rights, although there hasn't been much reason to use it since Vietnam (besides a few crack pot ideas).



I agree. I have said many times that removing the safety net would be a requirement to get things back on track. Problem is, are we too far off track to get that done?

Much more on this, but typing between work business is keeping me from getting my thoughts lines out in a way that makes sense.







What if the revolution has already taken place, and we are now just riding out the effects of it? Look around, is this really the same country it used to be?

Or has the revolution ever really stopped? This young nation has been changing at a fairly consistent rate since it's birth. Are we just trying to put the brakes on something that has been happening for over 200 years.

I will admit, I got up early this morning and may just be running in circles at the bottom of the rabbit hole.

The current "revolution" began in 1861. Our side lost the shooting war. "They" won another round in 1913 with the creation of the central bank and the irs. Another round with, welfare, social security, and yet another with obamacare. The slide had been getting steeper the last few years but it's been happening for a long time.

 

[Younggun]

The current "revolution" began in 1861. Our side lost the shooting war. "They" won another round in 1913 with the creation of thece ntral bank and the irs. Another round with, welfare, social security, and yet another with obamacare. The slide had been getting steeper the last few years but it's been happening for a long time.

This made me curious, and after a quick search I came across this:Tax Day trivia: Why do we have the IRS (and other factoids)?


Funny how taxes relate to control through our nations history.

 

[breakingcontact]

The current "revolution" began in 1861. Our side lost the shooting war. "They" won another round in 1913 with the creation of the central bank and the irs. Another round with, welfare, social security, and yet another with obamacare. The slide had been getting steeper the last few years but it's been happening for a long time.

In my formal education I studied the socialist roots in our country in depth especially in regards to carrying out the revolution in the school system.

I think about "frameworks" a lot. Usually big movements dont build their own framework to rise to power. They have to take over or otherwise use existing institutions.

I said that to say, I see how the socialist revolution which has been slowly turning in the US for 100 years used the expansion of federal government and reduction of federalism during and after the Civil War to its benefit.

 

[AcidFlashGordon]

Add in the relative disdain that many on both sides of the isle have for the current state of our government in general and things really look bad. And while complaining that congress can get nothing done and agree on nothing we have a population that is in the same state. Any compromise from either side is generally met with utter disgust. The left is digging in their heels to "end their oppression" while the right is digging in their heels to end the constant chipping away at their rights and livelihood.

At this point, I don't know that there really is an answer for this nation. A fundamental change in the way people think, but is that feasible? Not sure if there is really any way that this country can survive as one free nation.


Can't help but wonder what the USA will look like when my kids grow and and start trying to raise their own families.


/rambling

What is really needed, as noted, is for some kind of reeducation of Americans. The socialist/Marxist public school system isn't teaching, they're just turning out good little socialist/Marxist robots who will toe the government line, whatever it happens to be at the time.

There is also what, and I do mean what we have in Washington, D.C. Career politicians who have lost sight of what they were elected to do, i.e. represent their constituents, and are there for nothing more than to gather power and increase that power and to Hell with those who elected them. As for those who elected them, many are, to put it crudely, couch potato welfare monkeys. Again, education comes into play here. Demand for term limits for ALL elected officials to get rid of the career politicians is a major issue that needs to be addressed as well.

A fundamental change in the way people think can be achieved...but it will take a humongous effort to break the habit of "following the herd" (sheeple) and to get people to actually THINK before they vote. That may or may not be possible considering what I see on interview shows where people have no idea of the history of this country, inability to identify public and/or political figures and just general, I don't want to say stupidity, inattention to what this country is and stands (or stood) for.

The confederacy had it right, on states-rights. We lost that war. I have a feeling that we shall see version 2.0 within my lifetime, and I believe we will win the second one. Now, does that mean the death of the United States? In it's current form, yes. I believe the slide into oblivion began with the ending of the last civil war, and has accelerated since. I believe, the founding fathers, were a firm believer in limited federal government and those things not specified to the fed were to be left to the states. I just hope it happens soon enough for me to be able to help make a difference.

States' Rights, as you correctly noted as being the actual cause of the Civil War, WILL be a huge issue as time progresses. In the news we have already seen many instances of states exercising their states' rights. Obamacare, Common Core and gun controls are just a few instances that have made the news lately. Whether or not it comes to blows, or shooting, remains to be seen, depending upon federal governmental responses to those states that have exhibited a modicum of independence from federal governmental overstepping their bounds. I have seen a lot of chatter concerning secession, not only on Texas forums but from several other states as well. This shows that some in this country are waking up to the overbearing governmental control and a desire to return to what the Founding Fathers actually meant for this country ... small government only meant to assist states in their commerce in a minor role and to deal with foreign commerce as well as country defense.

One Ring to rule them all,
One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.

Wait, that was Lord of the Rings...

Or, as applied to Obamacare...

 

[oldguy]

What is really needed, as noted, is for some kind of reeducation of Americans. The socialist/Marxist public school system isn't teaching, they're just turning out good little socialist/Marxist robots who will toe the government line, whatever it happens to be at the time.

Bingo, pick a gift, you nailed it.

 

[Texasjack]

Items applicable to Obama directly from the Declaration of Independence:

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences

 

[Texasjack]

In the above post, I didn't have to delete many of the original list of grievances.

 

[Texasjack]

How about a few additional ones:

He has given aid and supplies to our enemies.

He has refused to help our citizens held captive by other countries.

He has used agencies like the EPA to close our businesses, block the use of our lands, imprison people for the sole offense of protecting their property from flood or fire, subvert the protections of the Constitution by confiscating lands, garnishing wages, and imposing regulations which have not been approved by Congress.

He has used Federal money to enrich his wealthy supporters.

He has refused to protect our embassy staffs and refused to provide evidence regarding the execution of those staffs.

He has assigned vast quantities of military hardware to be used against the citizens of this country.

He has refused to protect our borders from invasion.

He has refused to allow the citizens of the states to choose to require identification for voting. He has allowed radical groups to intimidate voters without consequence. He has allowed massive voting fraud to exist without investigation or punishment.

He has openly denied Fourth Amendment rights.

He has openly declared his intention to violate or remove the Second Amendment.

He has blocked open political assembly that is guaranteed by the First Amendment.

He has treated our veterans with contempt and limited their medical treatment and benefits.

He has used military hardware to murder citizens of countries that are not at war with this country.

 

[Texasjack]

Without putting too much thought to it, a new Declaration of Independence might get to be several pages long.

 

[Wabbit69]

I am not aware of any civilization in all of recorded human history that survived more than a few centuries without a major shake-up. Even Egypt and Sumeria's different "dynasties" were punctuated by massive, and usually violent regime changes. To think that humans in general, and the USA in particular, have "evolved" enough that our motivations are somehow different from the days that Nimrod built the first city-states is the height of arrogance and hubris.

As such, change is inevitable. History suggest that expecting it to be peaceful is wishful thinking. I predict it will start off peaceful with certain "red" states leading the way toward open secession as it did in 1861. Where it goes from there, it's hard to tell, as circumstances now are much different than they were over 150 years ago as follows:

1: While the population is still concentrated in "blue" counties of urban centers, it is no longer concentrated in "blue" states.
2: Manufacturing, transportation, and industrial infrastructure is no longer concentrated on one side.
3: Due to environmental regulations and NIMBY policies, "blue" states are nearly devoid of any meaningful self-sustaining energy production.
4: Military personnel are under-represented significantly by the "blue" states, and even those that hail from those regions are overwhelmingly sympathetic toward the ideals of the "red" states.

On the other hand, if secession goes violent, the "blue" states will likely start out with the financial support of foreign nations. The only thing that would change this would be a loss of confidence in the "blue" states' ability to prevail (France didn't throw in until after the defeat of Burgoyne at Saratoga). Also, the lack of the "red" states easy access to maritime lanes would be a huge strategic issue to deal with.

Now, I am certainly NOT advocating secession. If we go there, it will undoubtedly be a tragedy, and I sincerely hope I do not see it in my lifetime.

 

[AcidFlashGordon]

Now, I am certainly NOT advocating secession. If we go there, it will undoubtedly be a tragedy, and I sincerely hope I do not see it in my lifetime.

There is already a form of secession going on. Many states are exercising their States' Rights and nullifying parts of the ACA, a.k.a. Obuttfuckcare. The Liar-in-Chief has let it be known that he doesn't trust a lot of state governors, as noted by Governor Perry and referenced elsewhere on this forum (Rick Perry shaken up by Obama’s disturbing threat to governors in meeting). Many city and state police groups are noting that they'll NOT enforce any kinds of imposed gun controls. This IS rebellion but so far only on the par of the demonstrations against the Vietnam war back in the 60s and 70s ... minus the flag and draft card burnings.

More and more we see in the news that many of the kool aid drinkers have realized the folly of their way and have removed their heads from their asses and started speaking out against the Liar-in-Chief. This has to be making some kind statement and the current administration is doing what it usually does ... runs around like a chicken with its head cut off. The border situation is exploding and what does the Liar-in-Chief do? Attends fundraisers. During his visit to Texas he didn't go to the border to see the mess his administration has ignored.

So, outright secession? Not really. But a revolution growing by small bits each day. More and more political figures, from both sides of the aisles, are starting to realize that the socialist/Marxist agenda of the current administration is tearing this country apart. That's worse than any secession or civil war.

 

[TaylorS]

Heres what prompted one of my many threads. Do we let children have an equal say in our household decisions? Of course not. Yet these tens of millions who dont want to operate within our social construct, dont want to participate in our economy, dont want to contribute anything, their vote is worth as much as mine? Thats one illustration of just how bad this much democracy is and how there is something to be said for a degree of aristocracy and anti-egalitarianism.

So here's a idea that possibly could reverse political roles a amendment where only individuals who've paid their income taxes current and in full could vote would that make the libs wanna lower taxes so they can get voters back and conservatives want higher taxes to keep their seats? Just a thought

To the original post it took several generations to get us here but eventually the bells of freedom will ring along with those willing to take the responsibility that comes with it. This whole move left as I see it started around the turn of the century accelerated by the new deal which is now snowballing I don't see it getting better before it gets much worse but I'm guessing 2-3 more generations before enough heads see daylight for anything substantial to happen life like history is cyclic we've risen and we'll fall mostly were wondering when and what's gonna be left

 

[mikeofcontex]

The money has run out... it's been propped up for at least 10 years. The money failure is much closer than is being predicted "in the news."

 

[oldguy]

The money has run out... it's been propped up for at least 10 years. The money failure is much closer than is being predicted "in the news."

Once you reach a point with more people on welfare then working it's over especially for a strong middle class.

 

[jrbfishn]

Saturation point has been breeched. Balanced budget and debt free government are fond memories. How much more that can be sustained before enough people stand up is the question. Once the flow is cut off, nobody will like it. Especially unarmed liberals.


Sent by a idjit coffeeholic

 

[shortround]

The Founders gave us a very convenient, albeit difficult way out of this horrific situation:

"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government ..."

How many of you have read and studied the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States before you commented on this topic?

Our Founders envisioned enraged compatriots to march onto Washington and compel our Senators and Representatives to do our will. And if they refused to obey our will, we had the legal recourse to remove them from office. If that means storming the Capitol, arresting traitors, and appointing the Peoples' representatives in order to form a more perfect union, so be it.

Obviously, it is impossible for an unarmed public to remove the trash that sits in the White House or in Congress.

There is no law that prohibits an armed Citizen's Posse from arresting any serving public official for official misconduct or abuse of office.

I say we march on Washington and arrest every damned member of Congress. We hand the accused over to the Federal Courts and charge them with violating their sworn oaths to the Constitution.

Should the courts refuse to prosecute those who have violated their oaths of office, then we can dissolve the courts and try the accused in our own tribunals.

Payback is a mother.

 

[winchster]

^^^Is where the "shooting war" starts.