Gunshow questions

[wileycoyote]

I posted this question when I introduced myself here at TGT, but didn't really get any solid answers, so I'm reposting it here:

My wife and I are long time residents of Oregon (with Utah and Oregon carry permits). We also have a Texas winter home.

I've collected a lifetime of firearms, too many in fact, so I’m thinking of thinning the herd.

I'd like to sell/trade a few of these personal firearms, either face-to-face to friends/neighbors down here, or by taking a table at some local gunshows.

May I, an out-of-state resident, sell my personal firearms off a Texas gunshow table, without involving 4473 paperwork?

In other words, is its OK for me to sell at a gunshow to a resident purchaser? (after I question them and they appear legal to buy a firearm in Texas)

Technically being from out-of-state, I believe I can sell but cannot purchase firearms. Is this correct?

When selling, is it possible for me to take firearms in-trade, or would this put the trader in jeopardy?

I’ve googled endlessly and read a number of threads here (ie: https://www.texasguntalk.com/thread...face-to-face-transfer-and-other-options.7685/ and https://www.texasguntalk.com/threads/selling-at-gun-shows.82368) but have yet to find what I need to know for my situation.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

 

[Renegade]

We also have a Texas winter home.

So what are you trying to say?

May I, an out-of-state resident, sell my personal firearms off a Texas gunshow table, without involving 4473 paperwork?

In other words, is its OK for me to sell at a gunshow to a resident purchaser? (after I question them and they appear legal to buy a firearm in Texas)

No. You can only sell them to FFLs. Thus the rest of your questions are moot.

 

[majormadmax]

How much time do you spend in your "winter home?!?"

 

[wileycoyote]

"We also have a Texas winter home." means we own a home, pay property taxes and live in Texas six months a year, yet still register to vote and have driver's licenses in Oregon.

So the law says I'm not allowed to sell/trade my firearms to indivdiuals, only to FFL dealers? really? wow

 

[wileycoyote]

If you have a winter home in Texas, then you are a resident.

I thought we already this discussion?

I thought so too, but really want to be absolutely sure and was hoping someone could quote legal statute. I don't want to learn by making a mistake and being arrested....

 

[Renegade]

"We also have a Texas winter home." means we own a home, pay property taxes and live in Texas six months a year, yet register to vote and have driver's licenses in Oregon.

Well then for those 6 months you are residing in Texas you are Texas resident and can sell them.

So the law says I'm not allowed to sell/trade my firearms to indivdiuals, only to FFL dealers? really? wow

The law says out-of-state residents cannot, been that way since 1968. And that is how YOU described yourself - "I, an out-of-state resident,"

 

[wileycoyote]

More confused than ever. Is home ownership the standard? When I am living in Oregon I am an Oregon resident, but when I am in Texas I am a Texas resident? Am I a legal "resident" where I'm living at any given time?

I've spent time trying to figure proof of Texas residency but it changes for each need, ie:
- drivers license ("Texas driver license (DL), you must provide documents to prove you have lived in Texas for at least 30 days")
- school tuition ("lived in Texas for at least 12 months")
- voting in Texas ("...includes where you pay taxes...") but which taxes? Property taxes? Then I'm good... Income taxes? Texas doesn't have income taxes...
-etc

I don't mean to badger the point but I would like something solid to rest on.

 

[majormadmax]

I am trying to figure that out as well, most of the Texas residency requirements I have found deal with in-state tuition at colleges and universities.

Per the ATF, a person’s “State of residence” is defined by regulation in 27 CFR 478.11 as “the State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a Statewith the intention of making a home in that State.” Ownership of a home or land within a given State is not sufficient, by itself, to establish a State of residence. However, ownership of a home or land within a particular State is not required to establish presence and intent to make a home in that State. Furthermore, temporary travel, such as short-term stays, vacations, or other transient acts in a State are not sufficient to establish a State of residence because the individual demonstrates no intention of making a home in that State.

Source: https://www.atf.gov/file/55496/download

Of course, Federal laws don't apply to in-state sales; it's just the only definition of "residency" I have found concerning firearms sales so far...

 

[majormadmax]

But that same document states...

"ATF has previously addressed the eligibility of individuals to acquire firearms who maintain residences in more than one State. Federal regulations at 27 CFR 478.11 (definition of State of Residence), Example 2, clarify that a U.S. citizen with homes in two States may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State, purchase a firearm in that State."

 

[majormadmax]

But one more hiccup from that same source...

"Held further, the intention of making a home in a State must be demonstrated to a
Federal firearms licensee by presenting valid identification documents. Such documents include, but are not limited to, driver’s licenses, voter registration, tax records, or vehicle registration."

 

[majormadmax]

And just to muddy the waters...

May a person who resides in one State and owns property in another State purchase a firearm in either State?

If a person maintains a home in 2 States and resides in both States for certain periods of the year, he or she may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State, purchase a firearm in that State. However, simply owning property in another State does not alone qualify the person to purchase a firearm in that State.

[27 CFR 478.11]

https://www.atf.gov/questions-and-a...tate-and-owns-property-another-state-purchase

 

[wileycoyote]

majormadmax, this may be the most useful/helpful info so far. Thank you thank you. Anything else you come up with will be greatly appreciated.

from this law site: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/478.11

27 CFR 478.11 - Meaning of terms

State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b). The following are examples that illustrate this definition:

Example 1.
A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.

Example 2.
A maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y. [this seems to fit my situation]

Example 3.
A, an alien, travels to the United States on a three-week vacation to State X. A does not have a state of residence in State X because A does not have the intention of making a home in State X while on vacation. This is true regardless of the length of the vacation.

Example 4.
A, an alien, travels to the United States to work for three years in State X. A rents a home in State X, moves his personal possessions into the home, and his family resides with him in the home. A intends to reside in State X during the 3-year period of his employment. A is a resident of State X.

 

[majormadmax]

But according to the NRA...

Sales Between Individuals

An individual who does not possess a federal firearms license may not sell a firearm to a resident of another state without first transferring the firearm to a dealer in the purchaser`s state. Firearms received by bequest or intestate succession are exempt from those sections of the law which forbid the transfer, sale, delivery or transportation of firearms into a state other than the transferor`s state of residence.

Most laws I can find deal with the purchase of firearms. There isn't much on the sale of them!

 

[Renegade]

More confused than ever. Is home ownership the standard?

No, home ownership has nothing to do with it. Where you reside does. Hence why we use the word live, reside, resident, etc.

When I am living in Oregon I am an Oregon resident, but when I am in Texas I am a Texas resident?

Look at that you figured it out.

 

[majormadmax]

Might want to check out this old thread...

https://www.texasguntalk.com/threads/private-sale-as-a-non-resident-of-texas.54383/

 

[diesel1959]

"We also have a Texas winter home." means we own a home, pay property taxes and live in Texas six months a year, yet still register to vote and have driver's licenses in Oregon.

So the law says I'm not allowed to sell/trade my firearms to indivdiuals, only to FFL dealers? really? wow

You answered your own question when you stated you register to vote and have drivers licenses in Oregon. That is your domicile--home of residence. If you owned property in all 50 states, you still may only be domiciled in one of them at a time

For selling weapons, based upon what you've stated, you are a resident of Oregon and if you wish to sell a firearm in Texas, you must sell to or through an FFL here.

FWIW, you can change your domicile any time you like--meaning that when you're in Texas, you can decide to become Texas residents and can take up registration to vote and drivers licenses, etc. You know--the things that residents tend to do. The kicker is that so long as you keep the Oregon voting registration and Oregon driver's licenses, a Court can consider those as indications of your intent to keep your domicile--your permanent residence--in Oregon.

 

[Renegade]

You answered your own question when you stated you register to vote and have drivers licenses in Oregon. That is your domicile--home of residence. If you owned property in all 50 states, you still may only be domiciled in one of them.

For selling weapons, you are a resident of Oregon and if you wish to sell a firearm in Texas, you must sell to or through an FFL here.

Wrong.

But thanks for confusing him even further after we cleared things up.

 

[diesel1959]

Wrong.

But thanks for confusing him even further after we cleared things up.

I edited. You are not entirely correct on this one. I'm not saying he can't get away with lying and saying he's a resident of Texas when he's here; however, if he's ever called upon to prove it before a Court, the Court will no doubt take into their consideration other indications of his TRUE domicile/residence. And currently--given the facts as he's stated them--it's Oregon.

 

[wileycoyote]

Yet given the example offered in Cornell's law school info I posted above, I am a resident of Texas when here:

A maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.

 

[Renegade]

I edited. You are not entirely correct on this one. I'm not saying he can't get away with lying and saying he's a resident of Texas when he's here; however, if he's ever called upon to prove it before a Court, the Court will no doubt take into their consideration other indications of his TRUE domicile/residence. And currently--given the facts as he's stated them--it's Oregon.

I am entirely correct. You can buy/sell in whatever state you are a resident of, during the times you are a resident. The only exception is .mil on a post that borders 2 states. They can buy in either of those 2 state.

ATF definition of resident is not the same as the one you think it is. For example, he can also buy a handgun from an FFL while he resides in Texas. See instruction 2 Current Resident Address on the 4473.