Active Shooter at Robb Elementary in Uvalde

[General Zod]

Who had the key? what time were they asked for it? What time did the search begin for it?

“having to find someone with a key” doesn’t mean they couldn’t locate one for over an hour.

Are we going to pretend a key is the only way through the door?

And you think I have these answers?

Like I said, "having to wait for someone with a key" is the one consistent part of the narrative. The answers to your little interrogation are among the factors that change every time it's retold or retooled.

 

[Havok1]

And you think I have these answers?

Like I said, "having to wait for someone with a key" is the one consistent part of the narrative. The answers to your little interrogation are among the factors that change every time it's retold or retooled.

no. I didn’t expect you to have those answers. But if they are going to use that excuse, I expect for them to provide those answers.

 

[toddnjoyce]

… Are we going to pretend a key is the only way through the door?

How many doorways have you breached mechanically, thermally, ballistically, and/or explosively?

 

[Havok1]

How many doorways have you breached mechanically, thermally, ballistically, and/or explosively?

In total, I’m not sure. Explosively and thermally I can say none.

You?

 

[Tex929rr]

Maybe the LEO’s can answer this. We were doing active shooter training at our local middle school with local SO and DPS. Fire/EMS were providing medics. During one if the briefings I remembered a very stout exterior door I had seen (I think to a utility room) and I thought it looked like it would be close to impossible to breach it with hand tools. I told the presenter that we had battery powered hydraulic tools on the truck that could get through a door like that fairly quickly. He very politely said that they could access any door they needed to. I didn’t want to push it but I wondered how accurate that was. They basically carry modified Halligan tools for entry.

 

[mongoose]

How many doorways have you breached mechanically, thermally, ballistically, and/or explosively?

Being a General Contractor doing quite a bit of demo, I have experience both installing and removing all types of doors. With a demo saw with a diamond blade you can slice through most doors like butter.

 

[oldag]

Being a General Contractor doing quite a bit of demo, I have experience both installing and removing all types of doors. With a demo saw with a diamond blade you can slice through most doors like butter.

True. But how long would it take the average police officer to locate such a saw and get it to the school? He might not even be aware such existed.

 

[mongoose]

True. But how long would it take the average police officer to locate such a saw and get it to the school? He might not even be aware such existed.

Valid points. Just pointing out how easily doors can be mechanically breached. The Fire Dept should have access to both a demo saw and the jaws of life.

 

[toddnjoyce]

In total, I’m not sure. Explosively and thermally I can say none.

You?

Can’t even count training breaches. Real world, six explosive and just about every other OTW mission on my 08-09 OIF deployment included a mech breach at one point or another.

 

[Havok1]

Can’t even count training breaches. Real world, six explosive and just about every other OTW mission on my 08-09 OIF deployment included a mech breach at one point or another.

So we both know that gaining access to this classroom is doable without the key.

 

[Renegade]

True. But how long would it take the average police officer to locate such a saw and get it to the school? He might not even be aware such existed.

Goes to the failure of the ISD/PD to not have a plan, a backup plan, and another backup plan.

 

[toddnjoyce]

Goes to the failure of the ISD/PD to not have a plan, a backup plan, and another backup plan.

Q: Do you think your local agencies are much better prepared?

I’m not trying to defend the ISD PD here; I think expectations ≠ reality. Agencies are necessarily reactive which puts them at a tactical disadvantage to begin with.

I give DPD’s SWAT a lot of credit for creativity and initiative when they reportedly blew up an barricaded threat a few years ago, but even that kind of thinking and execution would not have changed the outcome in Uvalde.

Police Use of Robot to Kill Dallas Suspect Unprecedented, Experts Say

The death of a suspect in the Dallas police shootings marks the first time U.S. police officers have used a robot to kill someone, according to Texas and national experts.

www.texastribune.org

 

[Renegade]

Q: Do you think your local agencies are much better prepared?

I do not think they could be less prepared. But I know little about my ISD/PD. No kids in schools either. The regular PD is much better prepared. As FFL I have known chief since he was employee #1.

 

[JColumbus]

The part containing the context in the title is somewhere in the middle of this doc.

Either way, you're going to want to listen to this. Listen in pieces, whole thing, not at all... Whatever.

 

[toddnjoyce]

I do not think they could be less prepared.

Low bar. Ask your friend how many of his patrol officers are equipped with a halligan tool and how proficient they are with it in a hinge side forced entry.

Not picking on you, but I’ll take the average a .civ firefighter over the average LEO when it comes to breaching/forced entry capability and proficiency.

 

[Renegade]

Low bar. Ask your friend how many of his patrol officers are equipped with a halligan tool and how proficient they are with it in a hinge side forced entry.

Not picking on you, but I’ll take the average a .civ firefighter over the average LEO when it comes to breaching/forced entry capability and proficiency.

As I said i do not know anyone in the ISD/PD. Since their creation local PD no longer has jurisdiction over ISD property.

I am unincorporated, so even what I call “local PD” is not my PD, just nearest PD.

 

[Havok1]

Can anyone point to any other incident where police waited over an hour so they could get a key, before getting the bad guy?

 

[motorcarman]

Can anyone point to any other incident where police waited over an hour so they could get a key, before getting the bad guy?

Branch Davidians?

 

[toddnjoyce]

Branch Davidians?

There’s about eleventy billion examples, The article
I linked above was a 5-hr standoff and no key was needed.

 

[toddnjoyce]

Being a General Contractor doing quite a bit of demo, I have experience both installing and removing all types of doors. With a demo saw with a diamond blade you can slice through most doors like butter.

No doubt. Ever done that with rifle rounds coming at you through the door?