Are "No Knock Warrants" justified and are they worth the risk?

[1slow01Z71]

The event that took place in College Station (actually about 30 miles out of CS) was reported locally as the officers were there to serve an arrest warrant. The officer was shot while still outside the house. After he was shot the other officers made entry.

Id be real interested to hear what the official police report says about number of shots fired by the guy. Ill have to ask my buddy again and see exactly what the story is from the guy although itll probably have the same results as a bad game of telephone.

I find it really hard to believe that the cops couldn't have just staked the guys place out and when he left pull his ass over or snag him at work or at the corner store or... Makes no sense why they had to storm the guys house and put LEOs lives in danger and obviously his pregnant GF. Poor choice by the PD. The guys family has money and have retained a high power lawyer, itll be interesting to see how this goes down. With the facts available right now to me it seems the PD was clearly wrong.

Also this whole "informant" thing is a bunch of BS. What if the informant has a chip on his shoulder towards someone and tells the police false info, what if a certain officer has a personal vendetta against someone and makes up an informant, too much room for error. If an informants story is in corroboration with other surveillance like those meth heads north of Austin that were buying tons of meth equipment then an informant says theyre making meth then great. Pound the door down after you announce youre police or better yet snag their ass when they leave for more supplies.

 

[breakingcontact]

Thats how they rock it in Afghanistan. Go to the nearest FOB and tell the US mil guys you know some taliban. Point them out have them disappeared. Take their farm, or daughter.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

I think an attempt should be taken to take the person down outside the home.

Like the Waco incident. David Koresh was known to go out into the town, attend events like gunshows and got around regularly but they waited till he was held up in a fortified position?

Also same as Ruby Ridge.

I agree, how hard can it be to walk up behind them getting out of their car and taze them or cuff them. Storming someone's house is a horrible and unsafe idea for the accused and for the officers.

 

[BrenGunner]

This is a far cry from Afghanistan.
There is a process to qualify informants.
John Doe can't just walk up and say he has drugs in his house and bam warrant.
The 2 types of informants generally are
1 People who are wanting to help because if personal reasons or:
2. The more common, are doing it for remuneration.
Generally an informant with information will have to make a series of qualifying buys of varying amounts from different distributors while under surveillance before becoming "Credible."


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[BrenGunner]

Also same as Ruby Ridge.

I agree, how hard can it be to walk up behind them getting out of their car and taze them or cuff them. Storming someone's house is a horrible and unsafe idea for the accused and for the officers.

Vehicle takedowns are very dangerous as well. To the accused, the, officers and to the public.

I'm not saying its as dangerous as No knock, but saying how hard can it be to walk up and taze and cuff a suspect is ignorant.

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[breakingcontact]

This is a far cry from Afghanistan.
There is a process to qualify informants.
John Doe can't just walk up and say he has drugs in his house and bam warrant.
The 2 types of informants generally are
1 People who are wanting to help because if personal reasons or:
2. The more common, are doing it for remuneration.
Generally an informant with information will have to make a series of qualifying buys of varying amounts from different distributors while under surveillance before becoming "Credible."


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Says SWAT1911

What does INFOWARS357 have to say?

 

[1slow01Z71]

Thats how they rock it in Afghanistan. Go to the nearest FOB and tell the US mil guys you know some taliban. Point them out have them disappeared. Take their farm, or daughter.

Exactly, that how my buddies who have served said it goes down. This isn't Astan or any other oversears combat zone. My point was is information from an informant alone should not be enough to no knock someones house, PERIOD! Most informants are people turned from a life of crime to save their ass from jail time. At their core they are seedy people, and while Im sure they have some usefulness in law enforcement to essentially sentence someone to death because of that persons word is BS.

 

[BrenGunner]

Exactly, that how my buddies who have served said it goes down. This isn't Astan or any other oversears combat zone. My point was is information from an informant alone should not be enough to no knock someones house, PERIOD! Most informants are people turned from a life of crime to save their ass from jail time. At their core they are seedy people, and while Im sure they have some usefulness in law enforcement to essentially sentence someone to death because of that persons word is BS.

Exactly and normally the informants word ALONE would not be sufficient PC for a Felony No knock warrant.
Has is happend? Probably
I however have never heard of it happening.

The information would normally get surveillance set up and UC (undercovers) or CI's would again make some buys to determine the validity.

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[1slow01Z71]

Exactly and normally the informants word ALONE would not be sufficient PC for a Felony No knock warrant.
Has is happend? Probably
I however have never heard of it happening.

The information would normally get surveillance set up and UC (undercovers) or CI's would again make some buys to determine the validity.

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Except there are multiple accounts of this crap going wrong just in the last month. The informant saying some guys NW of Austin were GOING to make meth so the police barged in BEFORE they got a warranty all on the informants word. Now the college station fiasco where the cops were told this guy was a big time drug dealer where they found TWO marijuana plants and a couple of legally owned firearms. I believe most people and myself feel this becoming all too common place with law enforcement. So whatever process law enforcement is using to vet these informants and/or act upon said information is not working. Barging in before getting a warrant for something someone MIGHT do, and now barging in on a dude who had two pot plants. Ridiculous and everyone involved ought to be handed their pink slip.

 

[TaoJones1066]

There are a lot of things that would make life safer for the police, but not all fit within a FREE society. I do not believe in no knock warrants. This is my opinion.

 

[HillRider]

Funny how they never do this to the wrong kind of guys, if you get my drift.

 

[Younggun]

I don't.

 

[Mic]

I think an attempt should be taken to take the person down outside the home.

Like the Waco incident. David Koresh was known to go out into the town, attend events like gunshows and got around regularly but they waited till he was held up in a fortified position?

This sounds like a very intelligent option that should be used in lieu of no knocks.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

Vehicle takedowns are very dangerous as well. To the accused, the, officers and to the public.

I'm not saying its as dangerous as No knock, but saying how hard can it be to walk up and taze and cuff a suspect is ignorant.

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It's equally ignorant to think you can ID and locate all the folks in a building as easily as a vehicle.

It's a lower risk to everyone. That was my point.

 

[jordanmills]

I would like to see some LEOs get common sense and refuse to serve no-knock warrants. It's in their best interests too - it will keep them from being lawfully killed by terrorized homeowners.

 

[BrenGunner]

It's equally ignorant to think you can ID and locate all the folks in a building as easily as a vehicle.

It's a lower risk to everyone. That was my point.

I didn't say that at all. I didn't say anything about IDing. I agreed its less dangerous.

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[1slow01Z71]

Grand Jury Rejects Murder Charges For Man Who Shot DeputyCapitalism is Freedom
Great news. Hopefully this slows down the tide of these shitry warranta.

 

[Vaquero]

Bullhorn. "We've got you surrounded and the sewer is blocked".

 

[ROGER4314]

I started the high school Crimestopper program and ultimately became a member of our county Crimestopper board. There's a lot of training before you do those things and I can say without a doubt that the programs are very effective!

One of the training items may be appropriate to share. You guys were discussing the kind of person who phones in tips about someone else. In many cases, the caller who smokes a drug dealer is a competing drug dealer! I saw it repeatedly! One thief may rat out another to keep the competition down. The coordinator must always keep in mind that we seldom get calls from law abiding citizens. Most of the callers are dirty, too!

Flash

 

[XinTX]

Are no knock warrants good policing? Do they put the officers lives at increased risk or provide them the element of surprise and give them more safety?

"No knocks" originally came about because some drug houses kept lookouts and would 'flush' evidence in the event of a raid. But nowadays they seem like they're used for any type of warrant. Witness the case where the cops showed up in full SWAT gear and breached the door, all over ~$1000 in credit card theft. And in this case, they 'no knock' over a couple pot plants. In either of these cases, they could have picked up these people when they came out to get in their cars to go to the store. But that type of "raid" doesn't make for dramatic headlines.

But I also point a finger toward the judges who issue these warrants. A no-knock should be used in rare cases. I'd hope that some time in the future that TX will issue some pretty strict guidelines on when a no-knock warrant can be issued. There have been several cases where the cops have breached a door late at night to serve a no-knock, homeowner is awakened to see hooded figures with guns. Homeowner draws a gun in self defense, then is killed. Later the cops find they had the wrong address. The risk is too high. No knocks need to be in VERY limited cases, and the PD needs to accept full liability if/when they get the address wrong.

And personally, I don't believe someone yelling (in the midst of crashing through a solid door) "POLICE! SEARCH WARRANT!" constitutes "identifying yourself". Some home invaders have actually done that to disarm potential armed opposition from homeowners.

The risks are high for a no-knock (as in this case as well as others). They should be used in very limited circumstances. The judges consider the safety of the officer. But (as far as I know) no consideration is given to the safety of the homeowner, especially if the PD has the wrong address.