Primary Arms Micro Torture Test

[rushthezeppelin]

How do you figure having a 10# rifles energy falling on the sight isn't a good test? That whole physics thing is a mofo. Without boring you with the equations(a lot of grains to ounces to pounds and feet to meters conversion plus the actual equation math) figuring the average birdshot load runs 1300fps and saying that 20 pellets of #8 birshot(~1gr a piece) hit the sight versus an 8# rifle(lightened the rifle weight for the sake of argument) falling, the amount of force the sight would see is roughly 27 times greater being impacted by the rifles weight.

While the equation for kinetic energy squares the velocity, you have to multiply the velocity by the mass which is VERY small for birdshot versus a relatively heavy rifle in comparison. The rifles mass is roughly 2800 times more than 20 #8 birdshot. Think about it solely from a logic aspect. Essentially its the difference between a 150# person running into you versus the weight of the statue of liberty(actually googled what weighs ~450,000). In this example mass has a much bigger role in the kinetic energy equation than the velocity does. While the birshot is moving faster(40x faster), the rifle weighs much more(2800x heavier). Newton and his pesky equation. If Ive made an error in my calculations I apologize, its been a few years since I took physics in college...

Bahh, now I need to do the calcs on how much force 1-4x withstood crashing into my speaker stand. Going to be a little different since this wasn't a linear force since it fell on a fulcrum, can't remember how to calculate that but I bet google will solve it.

 

[1slow01Z71]

1slow dropping some math logic up in this piece!

You've got to know when to use a Bible and when to use a rifle.

My living and my life are dependent on my understanding of math. I work around post tension cables all day long that have 32,000 pounds of force in each of them and there is anywhere from 12 to 60 of them concentrated in a small area around at the edge of a concrete slab. Its my job to make sure the guys who are putting the hydraulic ram on each of those cables to put the tension in them do it in the correct order. Otherwise the slab blows out and construction stops. Ive seen 500# chunks of concrete fly 100+ ft when shit goes wrong so Im a bit familiar with math lol. Now Ive been at my grandmas clearing brush for a new shooting range all day so Im tired and may have flubbed a calc somewhere.

Bahh, now I need to do the calcs on how much force 1-4x withstood crashing into my speaker stand. Going to be a little different since this wasn't a linear force since it fell on a fulcrum, can't remember how to calculate that but I bet google will solve it.

Cant help you there, forgot that crap long ago. Probably about 10 minutes after my physics lab with pendulum swing length calculations. I know it requires the distance from the fulcrum along with mass but that's about it. Safe to say it still suffered a pretty good punch. Ive been very happy with the toughness of my vortex optics as far as beatings Ive given it. Now the new DOA scope I received from them and a couple scopes with less than stellar glass clarity is another story.

 

[rushthezeppelin]

My living and my life are dependent on my understanding of math. I work around post tension cables all day long that have 32,000 pounds of force in each of them and there is anywhere from 12 to 60 of them concentrated in a small area around at the edge of a concrete slab. Its my job to make sure the guys who are putting the hydraulic ram on each of those cables to put the tension in them do it in the correct order. Otherwise the slab blows out and construction stops. Ive seen 500# chunks of concrete fly 100+ ft when shit goes wrong so Im a bit familiar with math lol. Now Ive been at my grandmas clearing brush for a new shooting range all day so Im tired and may have flubbed a calc somewhere.

Do you work residential or commercial? I work as a home inspector and occasionally do stress inspections on post-tension slabs. We use a little less math to inspect after you :P

Cant help you there, forgot that crap long ago. Probably about 10 minutes after my physics lab with pendulum swing length calculations. I know it requires the distance from the fulcrum along with mass but that's about it. Safe to say it still suffered a pretty good punch. Ive been very happy with the toughness of my vortex optics as far as beatings Ive given it. Now the new DOA scope I received from them and a couple scopes with less than stellar glass clarity is another story.

I think if I'm going do this I need to DL a freesource physics modeler I found. This is going to require it because of the weight distribution and position of the scope. If I want to this properly I might have to disassemble my rifle a bit to get weights. Still obviously less force than a straight fall and maybe I can get a rough idea with rough modeling of it. I'll have to save this project for a rainy day though, I've got alot of shit to do in the next two weeks or so but I do love doing little experiments like that.

 

[1slow01Z71]

Do you work residential or commercial? I work as a home inspector and occasionally do stress inspections on post-tension slabs. We use a little less math to inspect after you :P



I think if I'm going do this I need to DL a freesource physics modeler I found. This is going to require it because of the weight distribution and position of the scope. If I want to this properly I might have to disassemble my rifle a bit to get weights. Still obviously less force than a straight fall and maybe I can get a rough idea with rough modeling of it. I'll have to save this project for a rainy day though, I've got alot of shit to do in the next two weeks or so but I do love doing little experiments like that.

Commercial multi-story buildings. Ive done a few of the highrises downtown and am currently doing a post-tension pan deck office building but it only has post-tension in the main beam girders and ~40 cables per beam. The coolest project I did was the north end zone expansion on the UT stadium 7ish years ago. That thing has some pretty cool post-tension that ties the precast sections of the actual stadium to the raker beams that support the entire north end zone.

If you ever want to get into the commercial side of things we're always looking to hire experienced and reliable people although Ive heard theres really good money in the residential inspection side if you get hooked up with the right people.

 

[rushthezeppelin]

I'm making pretty darn good money considering I'm only 28 and have worked mostly customer service before this, but it definitely ain't REALLY good money. I've only been in the industry for going on 3 years soon and I mainly deal with energy efficiency type inspections. I would love to work up to something like that but I think I need to stay where I am and get some more experience to warrant higher pay as well as expand how many certs I have.

 

[1slow01Z71]

We have another department we call Facilities that does the energy efficiency inspection and more post construction type inspections. Theyre based out of Round Rock, ESA Energy Systems Associates, don't know if you've heard of them. Im in the construction materials group for their parent company so I don't know exactly what all they do but its mainly the type of inspections you do but for commercial buildings. Im 28 as well but Ive been doing it since I was 18. Regardless of what people tell you, if youre not an idiot and do your job, youll go far. Youd be surprised how just doing your job and being reliable will get you.

 

[rushthezeppelin]

Well perhaps I will look at some commercial certs in the future. Just seen in the residential industry that allot of the older guys generally don't like people below 30-35 making it into their line of work. My roommate, who got me into this industry, saw it even worse as he was only 21 or so when he started out in residential plan review (his now FIL got him into the business). He literally got ostracized out of that job when his FIL left for another job. Perhaps that is not so much the case in commercial.

 

[Tactical Sandwich]

I have a hard time believing that you were actually aiming with the front post at your target. Seeing as how the front sight post on an M1A is 8moa, at 1000yds the front sight post covers 80"(almost 8') and youre holding ~7moa(almost 6') for wind. At 1000yds with M1A sights the far edge of your front sight post would be damn near off the far edge of the target so you would see basically 12" of the 20" target. The target would not be obscured by the front sight post at all to hold wind but that pesky elevation hold on the other hand would be tough since youd somehow have to hold 32' worth of it. Your target would be thoroughly covered with your barrel so why you mention target obscurity is beyond me. Youd be aiming at a spot on the hill way above the target to even hit unless. Unless you want to add that you were using an extended sight radius setup and/or Vernier sights but you said a "stock battle rifle"...

How do you figure having a 10# rifles energy falling on the sight isn't a good test? That whole physics thing is a mofo. Without boring you with the equations(a lot of grains to ounces to pounds and feet to meters conversion plus the actual equation math) figuring the average birdshot load runs 1300fps and saying that 20 pellets of #8 birshot(~1gr a piece) hit the sight versus an 8# rifle(lightened the rifle weight for the sake of argument) falling, the amount of force the sight would see is roughly 27 times greater being impacted by the rifles weight.

While the equation for kinetic energy squares the velocity, you have to multiply the velocity by the mass which is VERY small for birdshot versus a relatively heavy rifle in comparison. The rifles mass is roughly 2800 times more than 20 #8 birdshot. Think about it solely from a logic aspect. Essentially its the difference between a 150# person running into you versus the weight of the statue of liberty(actually googled what weighs ~450,000). In this example mass has a much bigger role in the kinetic energy equation than the velocity does. While the birshot is moving faster(40x faster), the rifle weighs much more(2800x heavier). Newton and his pesky equation. If Ive made an error in my calculations I apologize, its been a few years since I took physics in college...

Concerning how to qualify me making hits at 1000 yards:
You are right, the M1A has an 8 MOA sight post and with a wind-hold with 20 MPH winds at SSW value, we were holding of the edge of the target.
To clarify, as I stated, we were using the 1,000 yard setting on the rear sight, in order to see how close the dope was when using 175 SMK's.
So we weren't actually "holding over" for elevation. That would be dangerous.

I don't normally go out and shoot iron sights at 1000 yards; I normally use my Savage 10 308 with Bushnell ERS for this distance. But since we had the opportunity to test our marksmanship capability, with a bone-stock M1A loaded with match ammo, we decided to give it a shot. I am not claiming at all that I can make 100% hits at that distance or whatnot. I am just merely stating a fact that I've done it, and it's not a superhuman task.
Palma shooters shoot irons at 1k, with modified sights and rifles, but the fact remains, it's still iron sights.

Eventually-when I get a chance to go back out-I will video us shooting "less than ideal" rifles at that distance.

Magpul had no problem hitting targets at 1 mile with 16" Larue OBR's in .308.....just FYI. I am not quite sure how they got the 36-40 mils required to make such shot, but regardless, they did it with less than ideal weapons-not that I ever use Magpul as measurement of marksmanship.

You are well-versed in physics. I am not as intelligent in the physics area.
So, if I hit the MD-06 with a 4lb mesquite log, much like hitting a baseball, does that not impart quite a bit of kinetic shock on the optic?



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[Das Jared]

Concerning how to qualify me making hits at 1000 yards:
You are right, the M1A has an 8 MOA sight post and with a wind-hold with 20 MPH winds at SSW value, we were holding of the edge of the target.
To clarify, as I stated, we were using the 1,000 yard setting on the rear sight, in order to see how close the dope was when using 175 SMK's.
So we weren't actually "holding over" for elevation. That would be dangerous.

I don't normally go out and shoot iron sights at 1000 yards; I normally use my Savage 10 308 with Bushnell ERS for this distance. But since we had the opportunity to test our marksmanship capability, with a bone-stock M1A loaded with match ammo, we decided to give it a shot. I am not claiming at all that I can make 100% hits at that distance or whatnot. I am just merely stating a fact that I've done it, and it's not a superhuman task.
Palma shooters shoot irons at 1k, with modified sights and rifles, but the fact remains, it's still iron sights.

Eventually-when I get a chance to go back out-I will video us shooting "less than ideal" rifles at that distance.

Magpul had no problem hitting targets at 1 mile with 16" Larue OBR's in .308.....just FYI. I am not quite sure how they got the 36-40 mils required to make such shot, but regardless, they did it with less than ideal weapons-not that I ever use Magpul as measurement of marksmanship.

You are well-versed in physics. I am not as intelligent in the physics area.
So, if I hit the MD-06 with a 4lb mesquite log, much like hitting a baseball, does that not impart quite a bit of kinetic shock on the optic?



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One, the OBR has 20moa built into the rail, alone. Then you have mounts that can add more, and then factor in a scope. 2, one mile? Sorry but I call BULLSHIT until a video is posted. 1 mile is extremely difficult with a 338lp, much less a lil rinky dink 308. 3rd, the review was not bad, but you still need to add other variables, like the drop test. 1slow was just about bang on in all of his assements, although I didn't double check him on his calculations. 4th, for the next review, keep it plain and simple. No need for wild claims, just keep the review about the optic itself, and the testing.

sent from Jennifer Lawrence's bedroom

 

[Tactical Sandwich]

One, the OBR has 20moa built into the rail, alone. Then you have mounts that can add more, and then factor in a scope. 2, one mile? Sorry but I call BULLSHIT until a video is posted. 1 mile is extremely difficult with a 338lp, much less a lil rinky dink 308. 3rd, the review was not bad, but you still need to add other variables, like the drop test. 1slow was just about bang on in all of his assements, although I didn't double check him on his calculations. 4th, for the next review, keep it plain and simple. No need for wild claims, just keep the review about the optic itself, and the testing.

sent from Jennifer Lawrence's bedroom

Well I realize it requires mounts (I have a badger 20 MOA on my 308), but even my 20 MOA won't give me enough elevation adjustment until I move up to a 40 MOA (I've done the math).

They engage targets at a mile in their "Art of the precision rifle" with Accuracy 1st (hosted here in west Texas). I've actually never watched it, but apparently it's they hype. And no I'm not a fan of any of Magpul's videos. I like their gun parts but their videos are just way too "Chris Costa" for me.


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[1slow01Z71]

Im not even going to bother doing the calculations for the force the sight saw from being hit like a baseball. It would require a trigonometric and calculus equation and I'm mathed out for this. The baseball test is a much better litmus test for the strength of the sight than shooting it from a physics standpoint. The being shot woth birdshot is just a "wow" test. Once you put the math to it its not nearly as impressive as dropping a gun optic first from tailgate height. Ill double check my math later now that I've had some sleep and coffee.

Jared in the 3rd DVD of the Magpul Art of the Precision Rifle Travis Haley does make a mile shot with a 16" 308 gas gun. I dont remember the make of the gun or the size of the target but the target wasn't that big, maybe moa. Now we're talking Travis Haley who makes a living shooting and was being instructed by arguably the best long range shooting instructor, Todd Hodnett.

Mr.Sandwich, there is no 1000yd mark on stock M1A sights. Palma shooters use a 1 moa front blade and a 30"+ sight radius. Both of which make a huge difference in how much the front blade covers of the target. Even if the rear sight had the ability to adjust for a 1000yd shot you do realize the barrel is still point at the same spot on the berm as if you had the rear peep set on 100m and elevated by aiming above the target. The bullet still travels the same path so no it wouldnt be unsafe.

 

[Das Jared]

Im not even going to bother doing the calculations for the force the sight saw from being hit like a baseball. It would require a trigonometric and calculus equation and I'm mathed out for this. The baseball test is a much better litmus test for the strength of the sight than shooting it from a physics standpoint. The being shot woth birdshot is just a "wow" test. Once you put the math to it its not nearly as impressive as dropping a gun optic first from tailgate height. Ill double check my math later now that I've had some sleep and coffee.

Jared in the 3rd DVD of the Magpul Art of the Precision Rifle Travis Haley does make a mile shot with a 16" 308 gas gun. I dont remember the make of the gun or the size of the target but the target wasn't that big, maybe moa. Now we're talking Travis Haley who makes a living shooting and was being instructed by arguably the best long range shooting instructor, Todd Hodnett.

Mr.Sandwich, there is no 1000yd mark on stock M1A sights. Palma shooters use a 1 moa front blade and a 30"+ sight radius. Both of which make a huge difference in how much the front blade covers of the target. Even if the rear sight had the ability to adjust for a 1000yd shot you do realize the barrel is still point at the same spot on the berm as if you had the rear peep set on 100m and elevated by aiming above the target. The bullet still travels the same path so no it wouldnt be unsafe.

If its haley then I can believe it. That guy is nuts

sent from Jennifer Lawrence's bedroom

 

[1slow01Z71]

Yeah and they were shooting in a decent wind. Ive taken my 24" 308 bolt gun to 1200 and that was rough enough. Of course I dont have a SB scope with a horus reticle like he did which would make things easier but a mile shot with a 16" 308 gas gun is ridiculous. Its time to ditch the 4-16 vortex PST and upgrade so I can be like Travis Haley haha.

 

[Shotgun Jeremy]

I don't know why everyone is getting all bent out of shape. He's not claiming to be some extremely long range expert nor is he claiming to be a physics major. He's just a guy that enjoys guns like the rest of us who was given the opportunity to try taking a few shots at an incredible distance, and stepped up to try it. So he tried taking some shots at 1,000 yds with an M1. Good for him. Then, he also had some fun with a popular micro rds. This is why we can't have cool reviews-if they aren't exactly right to an exact set of variables, then someone will come along and try to tear the persons test apart rather than just sitting back and enjoying the test.

Honestly, I'm surprised. I thought more guys would enjoy being able to have a chat with the guy who ran the test and drop some ideas for future tests. I didn't see this coming at all.

 

[Tactical Sandwich]

Im not even going to bother doing the calculations for the force the sight saw from being hit like a baseball. It would require a trigonometric and calculus equation and I'm mathed out for this. The baseball test is a much better litmus test for the strength of the sight than shooting it from a physics standpoint. The being shot woth birdshot is just a "wow" test. Once you put the math to it its not nearly as impressive as dropping a gun optic first from tailgate height. Ill double check my math later now that I've had some sleep and coffee.

Jared in the 3rd DVD of the Magpul Art of the Precision Rifle Travis Haley does make a mile shot with a 16" 308 gas gun. I dont remember the make of the gun or the size of the target but the target wasn't that big, maybe moa. Now we're talking Travis Haley who makes a living shooting and was being instructed by arguably the best long range shooting instructor, Todd Hodnett.

Mr.Sandwich, there is no 1000yd mark on stock M1A sights. Palma shooters use a 1 moa front blade and a 30"+ sight radius. Both of which make a huge difference in how much the front blade covers of the target. Even if the rear sight had the ability to adjust for a 1000yd shot you do realize the barrel is still point at the same spot on the berm as if you had the rear peep set on 100m and elevated by aiming above the target. The bullet still travels the same path so no it wouldnt be unsafe.

Slow01,

The M1A does have settings for up to 1200 yards. See attached.
This one is currently set at 1000 yards.


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[Dawico]

I thought it was a fairly good review. Because of this test and other reviews I have read I will look at PA when I need another sight.

Could it have covered more? Of course, but what it did cover it covered well.

You are probably more likely to drop your rifle than to shoot it with a shotgun but it is what it is.

 

[breakingcontact]

If you guys send me $500 ill shoot my Aimpoint with a shotgun slug for the test.

You've got to know when to use a Bible and when to use a rifle.

 

[1slow01Z71]

Slow01,

The M1A does have settings for up to 1200 yards. See attached.
This one is currently set at 1000 yards.


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Those are not factory sights. You said "stock battle rifle". Even so the front post would not obscure your vision of the target due to your windage adjustment like you were saying.

 

[Tactical Sandwich]

Those are not factory sights. You said "stock battle rifle". Even so the front post would not obscure your vision of the target due to your windage adjustment like you were saying.

It's not my rifle. All I know is it's not a loaded or match M1A. The 1000 yard range I shoot at requires a qualifier in order for you to be allowed to shoot out there. I know an older gentleman who is the resident M1A expert who qualified with his loaded M1A, using iron sights. A much better shooter than I.

I've never owned an M1A. I just know what versions they come in and that's it. If you start asking about sights or gas system or whatever, you have permission to call me ignorant. I know how to shoot one, operate it and whatnot but I couldn't tell you the difference between a loaded or a standard.


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[Younggun]

Nothing like a good initiation BBQ.