922R rifle compliance question and SBR

[Younggun]

Lookin as suppressor hosts and came across something I didn't expect when looking at Beretta CX4 options.

It seems it is an actual import and is must be 922R complaint. From the random sites I'm finding that this means the barrel can't be threaded. That is pretty much agreed upon everywhere I e looked.

I've found mixed information regarding making it a short barreled rifle. Some saying it makes it illegal, others saying that a short barrel rifle is no longer required to be 922R compliant.

I have no idea, but I trust members here more than random posters on other forums. So my question is, is there a legal way to thread the barrel of a CX4 and not cross any legal lines?

 

[grumper]

In light of the latest round of letters from ATF, it appears you have to get the foreign parts count down to 10 or fewer if you want to put evil features on an imported rifle. Even if you SBR it.

If you cut the barrel, put a muzzle brake on it and permanently attach it, I think you might be able to slip by. (The PS90 has a permanently attached flash hider and is importable).

On my SG553 I'm not taking any chances, I've got 7 US made parts ready to swap in as soon as my form 1 clears.

The CX4 might be like the PS90 and have very few 922r countable parts. You need to check to see whether that pistol grip counts as a pistol grip or if it is a thumbhole stock. It doesn't look like it has handguards as they are part of the receiver. If you use a US made checkmate magazine you will replace 3 imported parts with domestic equivalents. I also see US made hammers, triggers, charging handles for sale too.

Here's a parts diagram http://www.houtsenterprises.com/cx4_partslist.html

I see:
Receiver
Barrel
Bolt
Trigger housing
Trigger
Hammer
Buttstock (pistol grip seems to be integral)
Magazine body
Magazine floorplate
Magazine follower
Charging handle
Disconnector (maybe? it's not named that if it has one)

That's 12 parts. If you replace the magazine with a Checkmate USA one it will drop the imported parts count by 3, leaving you with 9. The legal limit is 10 so even if we miscounted by 1 you would still be able to thread the muzzle and attach a US made muzzle device and be in compliance.

Safest way is to call Beretta and ask which parts are imported and counted by 922r, then replace enough to get down to 10.

 

[Younggun]

I've been searching a little more. Found a 10 year old thread where I'm pretty sure Renegade stated that once you go to SBR status 922R is no longer relevant. Hoping he or another experienced member can chime in on that.

Not sure I could even find any American made CX4 parts to swap.

 

[grumper]

I dunno what kind of rep this outfit has:

Products ? Beretta CX4 Storm Accessories & Parts Upgrades

But they have US made hammers, triggers, and charging handles for the Storm. Those 3 parts + the 3 magazine parts would put you under the legal limit for sure, no doubt about that. Just replacing the magazine and the charging handle should be easy and would almost certainly do the trick too.

I've seen the letter from 1994 that said Title II weapons didn't have to comply with 922r. But I've also seen the two letters from 2007-2009 that now say they must. It seems ATF has changed their mind.

 

[grumper]

Lol I bought a 100rd Beta C-mag for my SG553 project. With those 3 US made magazine parts I won't have to screw with swapping out the hammer, trigger, sear like I originally planned.

So gungrabber logic:

Rifle with a Made in the USA 100rd double drum magazine is less dangerous than a rifle with a 20rd Swiss magazine.

922r is a seriously fucked up law. But wutever, I'll be in compliance and they can kiss my arsch.

 

[Acera]

Remember it is not illegal to possess or sell a non-922(r) complaint firearm. It is illegal to make one. I don't think threading a barrel is considered making a firearm. Check out the letter below.

IMHO you are worrying about a non-issue. The gun was made by Beretta, not you. The law applies to Century, Atlantic Firearms, homebuilders, etc.

 

[grumper]

With eForms and ATF possibly digitizing existing records it would be trivially simple to write a SQL query to get all Form 1s for SBR/SBS made from weapons originally manufactured in a foreign country knowing these must all comply with 922r.

I'm pretty sure even they could put 2 + 2 together and figure if you filed a Form 1 to assemble a rifle and it isn't compliant, that you're the one that did it.

There's a few cases where the applicant wouldn't need to comply with 922r (single shot, pump, bolt actions or weapons imported for LE use and then re-SBR'd by cutting the barrel shorter) but everyone else would be boned unless they added enough compliant parts.

A Title I firearm you might be able to say you didn't assemble it that way, someone else did. But filling out a Form 1 application to 'MAKE and register a firearm' leaves a paper trail straight to your front door, better keep all your ducks in a row.

The law says it is illegal for any person to assemble a semi rifle or shotgun that would be illegal to import, it applies to everyone. Not just the importers.

 

[Younggun]

But if you build an SBR, even from a host from another country, by the ATFs definition aren't you manufacturing a new firearm?

And since this new firearm is manufactured in the US 922r becomes irrelevant.

That seems to be what I've gotten from my research in to this.

 

[grumper]

But if you build an SBR, even from a host from another country, by the ATFs definition aren't you manufacturing a new firearm?

And since this new firearm is manufactured in the US 922r becomes irrelevant.

That seems to be what I've gotten from my research in to this.

Yes the Form 1 is an application to 'Make and register a firearm'.

The tricky thing is: ATF's interpretation of 922r says it is illegal for any person to assemble a non-sporting semi-auto rifle or shotgun using more than 10 imported parts. They don't care where the gun was assembled, only where the parts came from.

Even if you remake a gun into a NFA device and assemble the parts here, it still can't have more than 10 parts made overseas if it has non-sporting features like threaded barrel, folding stock, pistol grip, normal capacity magazines.

Ex: if you bought a Colt AR-15 but swapped in a German barrel, bolt carrier, bolt, pistol grip, stock, charging handle, Brugger + Thomet Swiss handguards and Rotex flash hider, and a HK magazine (3 parts) it would no longer be a domestic rifle, it'd be an imported non-sporting rifle and contraband.

The CX4 Storm and PS90 are importable because they have thumbhole stocks, fixed or no muzzle device, no bayonet lug. But once you add one of those evil features, SBR or not, it becomes unimportable and you have to comply with the parts count. The ATF changed to this mode of thinking in the most recent letters on this topic.

 

[Acera]

grumper, you 2+2 analogy is not defensible. The burden of proof is so high for them, even if it were illegal and I still don't think it is, they would have to be watching him do it to have any chance of a conviction. Threading a barrel is not making a firearm.

Do you have any references where someone has gotten any legal troubles for this??

922(r) is one of the most convoluted things the govt. has ever done to the firearms industry. It is like the Gun Free School Zone Act, very hard to get in trouble with, used as a pile on charge if you busted for other things. Most LEO don't have a clue as to what it is, and not the responsibility of anybody but the feds.

Also YG, you going to be running the machine yourself, or paying a shop do it??? There is a difference there also.

 

[grumper]

grumper, you 2+2 analogy is not defensible. The burden of proof is so high for them, even if it were illegal and I still don't think it is, they would have to be watching him do it to have any chance of a conviction. Threading a barrel is not making a firearm.

Do you have any references where someone has gotten any legal troubles for this??

922(r) is one of the most convoluted things the govt. has ever done to the firearms industry. It is like the Gun Free School Zone Act, very hard to get in trouble with, used as a pile on charge if you busted for other things. Most LEO don't have a clue as to what it is, and not the responsibility of anybody but the feds.

Also YG, you going to be running the machine yourself, or paying a shop do it??? There is a difference there also.

An imported rifle can not have any of the evil features. ATF can get the 4473, and if your name is on it they will know you are the original purchaser. You file a Form 1 and it gets approved. ATF will know whether you sold or transferred this weapon to someone else because you would have to file a Form 4.

So they see you have a non-compliant semi-auto rifle in your posession. 4473 says you are the original buyer. It is registered to you on a Form 1. ATF has no records of any other transfers to anyone else.

So what do you want to go to prison for? Got 3 choices:

-illegally assembling a non-sporting rifle
-transferring a NFA device without paying the tax to someone else who then made it non-sporting, and then gave it back you also without paying another tax
-tax evasion for temporarily taking the short barrel off so some stranger can take ownership & possession of it to add evil features to it and then give it back to you so you can put the short barrel back on

The only way you could weasel out of that is if you bought it used and the 4473 has someone else's name. Then you could blame him.

These digital records will make this sort of thing unbelievably easy to detect. I wouldn't count on anonynmnity through bureaucracy any more.

 

[Younggun]

An imported rifle can not have any of the evil features. ATF can get the 4473, and if your name is on it they will know you are the original purchaser. You file a Form 1 and it gets approved. ATF will know if you whether you sold or transferred this weapon to someone else because you would have to file a Form 4.

So they see you have a non-compliant semi-auto rifle in your posession. 4473 says you are the original buyer. It is registered to you on a Form 1. ATF has no records of any other transfers to anyone else.

So what do you want to go to prison for? Got 3 choices:

-illegally assembling a non-sporting rifle
-transferring a NFA device without paying the tax to someone else who then made it non-sporting, and then gave it back you also without paying another tax
-tax evasion for temporarily taking the short barrel off so some stranger can take ownership & possession of it to add evil features to it and then give it back to you so you can put the short barrel back on

The only way you could weasel out of that is if you bought it used and the 4473 has someone else's name. Then you could blame him.

Wait, how is removing the barrel considered tax evasion? The barrel isn't a registered part. The registered part is the lower, similar to how it works with an AR.

 

[Younggun]

grumper, you 2+2 analogy is not defensible. The burden of proof is so high for them, even if it were illegal and I still don't think it is, they would have to be watching him do it to have any chance of a conviction. Threading a barrel is not making a firearm.

Do you have any references where someone has gotten any legal troubles for this??

922(r) is one of the most convoluted things the govt. has ever done to the firearms industry. It is like the Gun Free School Zone Act, very hard to get in trouble with, used as a pile on charge if you busted for other things. Most LEO don't have a clue as to what it is, and not the responsibility of anybody but the feds.

Also YG, you going to be running the machine yourself, or paying a shop do it??? There is a difference there also.

I'm no machinist. I would remove the barrel and send it off, or send the entire upper to Gemtech, but that costs quite a bit more.

Just depends on if I want to fabricate my own barrel removal tool or not.

 

[grumper]

Wait, how is removing the barrel considered tax evasion? The barrel isn't a registered part. The registered part is the lower, similar to how it works with an AR.

If you remove the barrel to turn it back into a Title I firearm to give ownership of it to someone else so they can add evil features to 'his' new rifle (and take the blame) knowing full well that person will give it back to you afterwards so you can put the short barrel back on cheats the tax man out of 2 transfer taxes.

 

[Younggun]

If you remove the barrel to turn it back into a Title I firearm to give ownership of it to someone else so they can add evil features to 'his' new rifle (and take the blame) knowing full well that person will give it back to you afterwards so you can put the short barrel back on cheats the tax man out of 2 transfer taxes.

How? the rifle is never leaving my possession.

Even by removing the barrel the lower (actual firearm) will remain a short barreled rifle.

The lower (SBR) never leaves my possession, the barrel leaves my possession, but is not a registered part. Ownership never actually changes of the non registered part, possession does, but why would possession of a non registered part matter so long as I retain possession of the registered firearm (lower)?

 

[grumper]

How? the rifle is never leaving my possession.

Even by removing the barrel the lower (actual firearm) will remain a short barreled rifle.

The lower (SBR) never leaves my possession, the barrel leaves my possession, but is not a registered part. Ownership never actually changes of the non registered part, possession does, but why would possession of a non registered part matter so long as I retain possession of the registered firearm (lower)?

If you want to blame someone else for making it non-sporting it has to be in the other person's possession. Otherwise he's just putting evil features on your rifle at your request.

And rifles can only be SBRs while they are in a configuration shorter than 26" or with a barrel shorter than 16". If you put a 20" barrel upper on a registered SBR AR it is no longer a Title II weapon and you could bring it to another state or even sell it to someone else as long as it stays Title I config thereafter. ATF requests you notify them to remove it from the registry if you do this but there is no requirement.

 

[Younggun]

I appreciate your input on this Grumper.

Hope to get a few more to chime in to solidify things. More likely the matter will be further confused though.

 

[Younggun]

To be clear, I have no intention of playing the blame game, only clarifying if manufacturing an SBR requires 922r compliance.

 

[orbitup]

My head is spinning from reading this.

 

[grumper]

My head is spinning from reading this.

Yeah it's a terrible law. Confusing, almost unenforceable, can be difficult if not impossible to comply with (since many parts are not stamped Made in the USA). But the govt can use it to completely ruin your life if they choose with their endless funding for prosecution.

They don't even need a conviction, just defending yourself in court would eat up your assets and you would almost certainly be made to forfeit the contraband firearm.

Really the main reason I'm so concerned is because of the eForms system. It would take me 60 seconds or less to write a SQL query to return all approved Form 1s where the original manufacturer's country <> 'USA'.

It's low hanging fruit now for any federal prosecutor looking for a few wins or plea deals on the resume.