9mm - .40 - .45

[pwrincross]

Thanks for asking the question because with the answers given I have learned a lot. I own multiple calibers and like them all. I carry a .380 (Sig P232) with personal defense rounds loaded in it. The .380 allows me to carry it 100% of the time. Except when I am in my office building I always have my gun on. Whatever caliber you choose make sure the gun is comfortable for you to carry. A gun left at home or in the car when you NEED it is worthless no matter what caliber it is. I may copy some of these posts to save for future reference.

 

[dee]

Anther thing to look at is ammo type some of the +p 9mm ammo is only down a lil to the .45 in energy.

 

[navyguy]

Wow, I was going to add something to the conversation, but it's all been said, and all great advice. FWIW, a 9mm +P or even a standard pressure defense round like a Federal HST is an excellent defense round. You will not be under gunned carrying that.

I did pick up on one statement you said the guy at the gun shop made in regard to .45 bullet "picking up energy as it goes". That is simply not true. The instant a bullet leaves the barrel and gets into the atmosphere it begins to loose speed. Energy is a function of bullet weight and speed, so if it's going slower it will have less energy. Doesn't mean it will not preform, but it will be going slower the further it travels. Todays defense bullets are designed to expand (get wider) when they hit something like a BG's chest, but they are designed to do this a a particular speed. Some bullets shot out of very short barreled guns (which produces less speed) will not expand properly.

 

[Phoebe Ann]

tex45acp - you asked about my gun experience. I've spent the last 25 years hunting. Lots of quail hunting with German Shorthaired Pointers that I raised, dove hunting all over Texas, deer hunting and turkey hunting. Just shot my first turkey about a month ago with an 870 magnum from 65 yards away. It was a great experience - I was so proud!

As far as handguns go, I've shot a .22 and a .45. I'm not scared of guns but respect them as they should be. My experience with them is very limited and am not around them at all. I have two friends that are big gun enthusiasts but one of those friends is sketchy and the other is always travelling. When the travelling friend gets back from his Army gig, I'm going to ask him to gather up all his pistols and take me out.

I'm loving all the information you guys and gals have given me. It's been incredible.

If anyone is going to Shiloh, Hot Wells or the range in George Bush Park in west Houston and would like to coach me and share their pistols with me to try out, let me know. Maybe something could be set up. However, a background check on you will be necessary first.

Have a great weekend everyone!

 

[308nato]

I'am generaly at Shiloh on thursdays so I can get the old guys discount
and if you need references you can talk to Jeff.
I have 4 pistols you can try a Baretta 92fs, CZ Rami. ,Sig p250. and
a High Standard gov.model 1911 in 45 acp. , the others are in 9 mm.
If you have time PM me when you want to try them out.

 

[Texas1911]

When it comes to handguns, caliber is meaningless without proper shot placement.

I rely on a Glock 19 at home. I don't feel inadequate with a 9mm JHP, especially when I can put 16 of them into their chest cavity at 3 - 7 yards in a few seconds, should it come to that.

 

[idleprocess]

Let's talk about revolver rounds!

.38 Special (.38 SPL)
An old cartridge with blackpower heritage, the .38SPL has less energy than a 9mm round, but more than a .380 auto round. It's generally considered effective enough for self-defense (especially tn its "overpressure" +P and +P+ variants, where it can roughly meet 9mm performance). Recoil on .38 SPL is pleasant on larger revolvers, but can be severe in "airweight" snub-nose resolvers. .38SPL is readily available, relatively inexpensive, and most .38SPL revolvers on the market now can handle +P rounds if not +P+ as well.

.357 Magnum (.357)
The first magnum cartridge, .357 was developed by loading .38 Special cases with more powder to drive up the velocity and increase its effectiveness. It was a success in newer revolvers with stronger cylinders, but the case was lengthened slightly in order to prevent shooters from loading up old .38SPL resolvers unable to handle the pressures. .357 revolvers can chamber .38 SPL cartridges of all pressure levels. Its recoil is considerably more brisk than .38 SPL and brutal in airweight "snubbies." .357 is redaily available, but somewhat more expensive than .38 SPL.

.327 Federal Magnum (.327)
This is a very new cartridge that claims to offer .357 performance in a smaller package that allows for a 6-round cylinder in the same space as a 5-round .357 cylinder. It is based on the mostly obsolete H&R .32 Magnum (itself based on the obsolete .32 S&W Long, an improvement on the black powder .32 Long), following the now-established tradition of taking an older casing and making it somewhat longer to allow for more powder and rendering it incompatible with older revolvers. The initial performance numbers on .327 look good, but given that it's roughly a year old it's a bit early to tell. Ammunition availability is not great since it's a new caliber and prices are somewhat high.



The following cartridges really aren't really suitable for carry, but I'm including them anyway for the sake of completeness.

.44 Special (.44 SPL)
.44 SPL is kind of like a larger and heavier .38SPL, although slightly newer. It is somewhat obscure and usually seen in larger revolvers not often carried for self-defense, although it is up the task with performance similar to 9mm loadings. Ammunition avilabaility is poor and prices are high.

.44 Magnum (.44 mag)
Made famous by the Dirty Harry movies, .44 Mag is a very powerful round - arguably too powerful to be used routinely for self-defense. It is powerful enough to defend yourself against brown bears with well-placed shots. Like the .357 Magnum and .38 SPL, .44 mag is essentially a lengthened .44 SPL cartridge loaded with more powder to propel the bullet much faster. You will only find .44 magnum in fairly large revolvers to the nearly tripled muzzle energy vs .44 SPL (power varies from roughly double 9mm to exceeding lower-energy rifle rounds like the M-16's 5.56x45 / .223 Remington). Recoil and muzzle blast are dramatic, even in heavy large-framed revolvers. Ammunition avilabaility is not good, but prices are somewhat lower than .44 SPL since unlike .38 SPL/.357, owners of .44mag revolvers seem to run .44 mag through them most of the time.

.45 Long Colt (.45LC)
This is the "cowboy" caliber of Colt Single-Action or Peacemaker fame. It was originally a black powder design. While it is certainly adequate for self-defense (modern loadings reach .40 S&W energy levels), it's generally only found in single-action revolvers not particularly suitable to concealed carry. Availability is allright since there are no small number of single-action Colt replicas out there, but price is somewhat high. Lighter "cowboy action shooting" rounds are easier to find than full-power .45LC rounds.

.454 Casull (.454)
Essentially a .45LC "magnum" (slightly longer, more powder, huge increase on muzzle velocity), the .454 was the most powerful revolver cartridge available for decades until the introduction of the "super magnums" (like .460 and .500 S&W Magnums). There are no small revolvers that chamber it, and given its rifle-like energy levels, it's really not suitable for carry anyway. Ammunition availability is poor and prices are quite high since .454 is a niche caliber.

 

[Big country]

[URL="http://www.gunsite.co.za/images/pics/speer_selfdefense/Handgun_gel_comparisonweb.jpg"][url]http://www.gunsite.co.za/images/pics/speer_selfdefense/Handgun_gel_comparisonweb.jpg[/URL][/URL]

I .

That blows my .40 round choice all to hell. I like that they all seem to penetrate the same for the most part. But that being said lets argue about calibers and bullet weights for a few hundred threads J/K
Phoebe Ann you are doing things a l lot better than I did when I bought my first pistol. You're doing great just find what you want to shoot and carry and practice as much as you can, as often as you can. And BTW dove hunting is fun.

 

[txinvestigator]

Great info in this thread.

Don't worry about the zombie who won't go down with multiple shots. I saw a guy get shot with a .22 in the leg and died. We had an officer get shot 6 times in the chest with a .45. He was my partner a couple of years AFTER that.

Google, "FBI Miami Dade"

I carry a .45, but I have also carried .38, .357 magnum, 9mm, .40 and .380. I never felt undergunned.


All that said;

No offense

 

[Big country]

I knew a guy that took 6 357 mag (fmj) to the chest and after reconstruction on his insides is still alive.

 

[TxEMTP69]

Great info in this thread.

Don't worry about the zombie who won't go down with multiple shots. I saw a guy get shot with a .22 in the leg and died. We had an officer get shot 6 times in the chest with a .45. He was my partner a couple of years AFTER that.

Google, "FBI Miami Dade"

I carry a .45, but I have also carried .38, .357 magnum, 9mm, .40 and .380. I never felt undergunned.


All that said;

No offense

 

[Maxpower]

that's why I have both

 

[Phoebe Ann]

Phoebe Ann you are doing things a l lot better than I did when I bought my first pistol. You're doing great just find what you want to shoot and carry and practice as much as you can, as often as you can. And BTW dove hunting is fun.

You probably didn't have this forum available when you bought your first pistol. And if it was available, you'd probably still be scratching your head wondering what to buy. Lol... As for dove hunting, it's probably my least favorite kind of hunting. What surprised me was turkey hunting. I first thought that would be borrrrring. But that was more challenging than any deer hunting or quail/dove hunting I've ever done. Plus I got that nasty little beard as a trophy. What do I do what that!???

Anywho, y'all please keep the info coming. It's been very helpful. Even the little devilish comments (txinvestigator). They won't scare me off.

 

[M. Sage]

I went and looked at guns today. What fun that was. I was lucky enough to find someone behind the counter who was very knowledgable and able to communicate that knowledge to me. I was very proud to be the only woman amongst about 10 men at the counter. I learned some good stuff today.

A good day at the gun store is a great day.

I saw a Sig 9mm that I liked but the gun was just too big in size to conceal on me. I asked him if there were 9mm smaller in size. (By the time I left, he suggested I maybe take a look at a Baretta PX4 Storm Sub Compact.)

For a concealable 9mm, I'm a pretty big fan of the Kahr PM9. I tried one in my jeans pocket once. Fits!

He began to tell me about the guns, the weight of the bullets (I'm sure y'all don't call them bullets) and velocity. The whole velocity thing was so interesting. He said the velocity of a 9mm is fast thus able to cut through your target (victim) quickly. He said it was not uncommon to hear a story about a "target" being shot several times and still not down.

First, your target had better not be a "victim" or you've done something very bad indeed! If you're defending yourself against a violent attacker, you are the victim!

Second, this scenario is very common with every handgun caliber.

He explained how a .45 has a slower velocity therefore picking up energy as it travels and making a more fatal impact.

Stop. Think about this from a physics standpoint. Velocity is movement, and movement is energy. If something is getting more energy in flight, it's either somehow becoming heavier without slowing down, or it's accelerating. In either case, it has to have more energy put into it.

As soon as a bullet leaves a barrel (if not sooner, if the barrel is long enough - this is at about 18"-20" for most pistol ammo), it begins to decelerate.

So I asked then why would someone use a 9mm vs. a .45 if the goal is personal protection and the 9mm might not do the job? My sole intent is personal protection and if I'm a good shot, I don't want my target still standing when I hit with a 9mm. I don't want any second guessing if it's between me and someone who is threatening my life.

The two biggest factors for effective defensive shooting with any handgun caliber from .380 to .45 are that your ammo has enough penetration in a target to reach vital organs and that you place your shots so that they will hit said vital organs. Contrary to what some may suggest, you do want your shots to exit the other side of an attacker. There are some very good things to hit in or near the back (descending aorta and the spine come to mind).

So long as your ammo works in your gun to give you deep enough penetration and so long as your shot placement is good enough, the caliber barely matters, if at all.

Why use 9mm over .45? Recoil is lighter, capacity is larger, the firearms are usually lighter and the ammo is almost always lighter (outside of some oddball specialty rounds, it is always lighter).

The biggest advantages to .45 are the larger diameter (it's not all that bigger, really) makes a slightly larger hole and that slow and heavy (which is what .45 is) makes for excellent penetration. It's a naturally good defensive round because of these, but with good hollow points in either caliber, you won't notice much if any difference in a gun fight.

Odds are you won't notice much until it's over, in fact... "Front sight, squeeze, front sight, reset, squeeze, front sight" is going to be your world until your pistol is empty or the BG is down.

Am I going in the right direction here or am I missing something?

You're working on it, but there is a lot of info, both good and bad, out there.

Worry less about the equipment and more about the training; the physical and mental skills and preparation you'll need are more important. As long as your chosen firearm goes "bang" repeatedly with the ammo you've chosen, and you choose a modern design proper for the firearm you have, the gear doesn't matter at all.

 

[txinvestigator]

Stop. Think about this from a physics standpoint. Velocity is movement, and movement is energy. If something is getting more energy in flight, it's either somehow becoming heavier without slowing down, or it's accelerating. In either case, it has to have more energy put into it.

As soon as a bullet leaves a barrel (if not sooner, if the barrel is long enough - this is at about 18"-20" for most pistol ammo), it begins to decelerate.

WHAT??!!! You don't have any of the NEW rocket propelled, steerable, +p+ uranium tipped with DNA signature recognition rounds?

Worry less about the equipment and more about the training; the physical and mental skills and preparation you'll need are more important. As long as your chosen firearm goes "bang" repeatedly with the ammo you've chosen, and you choose a modern design proper for the firearm you have, the gear doesn't matter at all.

Great paragraph!..

 

[micah7488]

who needs a handgun when you got this, it has a better spread pattern.
Super Shorty
ha

 

[SIG_Fiend]

You probably didn't have this forum available when you bought your first pistol. And if it was available, you'd probably still be scratching your head wondering what to buy. Lol... As for dove hunting, it's probably my least favorite kind of hunting. What surprised me was turkey hunting. I first thought that would be borrrrring. But that was more challenging than any deer hunting or quail/dove hunting I've ever done. Plus I got that nasty little beard as a trophy. What do I do what that!???

Anywho, y'all please keep the info coming. It's been very helpful. Even the little devilish comments (txinvestigator). They won't scare me off.

For now, since you're just starting out, don't worry about the whole caliber argument. The number one most important factor is getting proper training from someone that knows what they're doing.

There are two fundamentals you'll have to work on and master first. Those are proper sight alignment, and a proper trigger pull (meaning no yanking the trigger ). It sounds really simple but, once you get those things down pretty well, you will be able to hit pretty much wherever you aim. Most people's inaccuracy problems can be boiled down to most likely an improper trigger pull, or sometimes improper sight alignment. Once you get to the point where you have that down pretty well, then you can move on to speeding up your follow up shots, at which point having just the right grip method is necessary to control recoil as much as possible, recover from the recoil as quickly as possible, and get back on target as quickly as possible.

Once you've mastered the fundamentals, speed while maintaining accuracy is something I can't stress working on enough. The closer a self defense encounter may occur, the faster your follow up shots need to be while still maintaining acceptable accuracy. Generally, for self defense purposes you want to be able to maintain around a fist-sized group as fast as you can pull the trigger. To give you an idea on speed, inside 7yds (usually ~0-5yds or so) ideally you want to be able to do ~3-5rds per second. That's a heck of a lot faster than the typical slow fire range rules will allow at many ranges. The reason is, there is always the very real possibility that it will take several hits to stop an attacker. In most cases, such as a knife attack, you need to stop the threat immediately as an attack at such close range leaves you very little time to react. This may be a disgusting topic to think about for some people but, the central nervous system shot (head shot) is something you may have to consider at this range. The worst case scenario is dealing with an attacker armed with a knife. One slash with a knife can potentially do far more damage then a bullet or two. If you've already fired several shots to an attackers torso and they continue charging (especially if they have a knife), you're only option might be a head shot. Don't let anyone fool you, the only type of shot out there that will have a 99.9% likelihood of instantaneously stopping someone in one shot is a proper shot to the CNS. All shots to other areas of the body take significantly more time to disable an attacker. Here is a video of the extreme worst case, and a good example of why we all need to be vigilant in our training as well as learning to train at the speed of life:

YouTube - Knife Attack Gone Bad

I really hope none of this scares you Phoebe. I just really hate the stuff I constantly see every day of people training at about 25% of the speed and proficiency necessary to deal with a real life close range encounter. It really just does a disservice to people. I meet lots of people every day who are just completely unrealistic about this aspect with themselves, and I just hate to see anyone fool themselves into thinking their training is adequate.

I can't remember, Phoebe, but I thought you mentioned you are from around the Houston area? If that's correct, you might consider taking some classes from these guys in the future:

Training

 

[M. Sage]

^^^ Be aggressive enough soon enough.

Knives are scary things. I'd rather be face to face with someone holding a gun than a knife. I know I have a good chance of taking a gun away (especially against someone with little or no training) or at least get it out of the fight. Almost impossible to do that with a knife without getting cut to ribbons.

 

[Big country]

^^^ Be aggressive enough soon enough.

Knives are scary things. I'd rather be face to face with someone holding a gun than a knife. I know I have a good chance of taking a gun away (especially against someone with little or no training) or at least get it out of the fight. Almost impossible to do that with a knife without getting cut to ribbons.

For sure "every time a knife touches you you will bleed"- Hoji. Nothing could further from the truth. And yes TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN AND TRAIN! and then when you are sure, without a doubt in your mind that you have this down pat! Train some more. "When you quit learning you start forgetting"- one of my teachers said that to me and it is true. If you can't find some place to shoot on the move and do multiple targets slow fire you hand gun at the range it is better than nothing. And you are always the victim never the attacker, the bad guy (or girl) is always the attacker. If God forbid you find yourself involved in a self defence shooting you switch those up it will be very bad, and probably very expensive. Go shoot, train, and the most important part of all of this is have fun shooting.

 

[Texas42]

Thanks for the video, Sig Fiend. That was a big chunk of reality. Kind of reminded me of "V for Vendetta" (an excellent movie, btw)