A Slightly Scientific Look at the Thumbs Forward Pistol Grip

[SIG_Fiend]

I've drawn the relevant torque arcs for you.

The upper torque arc is the force of the recoil at a short distance from the pivot point created at the web of your thumb and forefinger. To counteract the torque, apply a smaller force at an appropriate angle near the bottom of the grip. The force is smaller because the distance is greater, and of course Torque = force * distance.

Interestingly this means the fingers furthest from the slide have the most effect in controlling the recoil.

I've found that to be very true. Many people focus less of their strength from their ring and pinkie fingers, and seem to use a majority of their strength from the index and middle fingers. One golden nugget I've found is to use good quality grip trainers, like Captains of Crush grippers, or some other method and focus not only on your whole hand grip strength, but the individual fingers as well. Build some strength with the pinkie and ring fingers, and I bet a person that is concerned with maximum performance could see a noticeable improvement in controlling muzzle flip.

 

[kotetu]

Here's some more torque fun:
Handgun Recoil Table

My SigPro is pushing 2 pounds unloaded. So from the table, I should be seeing about 4.4 foot pounds of recoil with a 124 grain bullet travelling at 1157 fps. (I am going to assume this measurement applies to the pivot point so everything can be compared.) Multiply by 12 to convert to inch-pounds and you get 52.8. Now my pinky is 3 inches away from the pivot point. Divide 52.8 by 3 and you get 17.6 pounds. So if I put 17.6 pounds of force into my pinky grip, theoretically I should cancel out the recoil.

Theory aside, I have no idea how much gripping force my pinky can generate.

 

[IXLR8]

SF, great job! You do need to add it to a YouTube video. Find someone that can shoot some slow motion video, so that the improvements can be better recognized. Please feel free to make as many of these as you like. It will benefit many people.

 

[Younggun]

Question.


When I shoot, the gun isn't opening up my grip. My fingers and palm are all staying in contact (as far as I can tell) so wouldn't managing the recoil have more to do with wrists and forearms than pinkies?

One more question.

If you are applying that force while holding the gun, you must essentially cancel it out in order to aim, or else you would be rotating the muzzle down. So when you fire the gun isn't all that force from your hands and fingers pretty much neutral? It can't be possible to quickly increase the amount of pressure you are imparting on the lower part of the grip at the exact moment of recoil.


Yup, I'm makin it complicated.

 

[kotetu]

weird, my post vanished.

Yes, you need to hold your wrist steady as it is also a pivot point.

Yes, you need to respond as closely to the moment of ignition as possible.

The OP's grip does two things very well. It focuses the anti-recoil force at the most effective spot of the grip (the bottom) and sort of "pre-tensions" the wrist to resist the torqueing motion.

 

[Younggun]

In my experience, responding to ignition is known as a "flinch".

 

[kotetu]

Paul Gomez posted a video on this grip:
http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/video-how-tos-tutorials/30699-grip-stance-core-pistol-skills.html

 

[kotetu]

I think in this game it's called getting back on target.

 

[Byrd666]

tagged

 

[SIG_Fiend]

In my experience, responding to ignition is known as a "flinch".

There is a lot of different terminology people use to describe many of the aspects of this. One distinction here is pre or post ignition "push". Pre ignition push is another term that people typically refer to as "flinching". Basically, before you break the shot you are inducing some sort of movement in the gun. It can come from many areas. People sometimes yank the trigger. Also, sometimes people push the gun forward and/or downward trying to push against the recoil before it actually occurs. Sometimes people break their wrist downward right before breaking the shot. Also, sometimes people "milk" the grip and basically squeeze their entire hand simultaneously when pulling the trigger, as opposed to having a fixed grip, and only squeezing with their trigger finger.

Post ignition push is actually something that can be beneficial, and is something that most if not all shooters that are proficient with shooting at speed typically do.

To summarize post ignition push in the simplest way I've found, here's an example I like to use with students, as for some reason it just "clicks" with them very quickly. Imagine getting into a solid and performance oriented stance. Then imagine you are holding your hands together, somewhat like you would when holding a gun, so that you basically have one fist holding the other. Now imagine you are pressed out to full extension as if you had your gun in hand and were ready to fire. Now imagine if I came up and firmly rammed my fist like a hammer fist into your hands. Not extremely hard, but enough to simulate recoil. With the actual gun in hand, for some reason I find that there is some sort of change with people, in that they become "passive", and they don't quite resist the gun how they need to. In the example though, hitting your fists, people instinctively and subconsciously resist that impact and keep their hands in place. It doesn't take a massive amount of strength or resistance, just a degree of passive resistance. In effect, you are basically trying to hold the gun in one place, and if a force is exerted on it, you aren't fighting it, you are just continuing to try and hold the gun in that exact same place.

^ Does any of that make sense to anyone? Dang, I really need to bust out the video camera, as this is something that literally takes seconds to demo, and I've seen it often become a light bulb moment for students, because they actually feel what they're supposed to be doing without necessarily actively trying to do it.

With post ignition push and a very good speed shooter or competition shooter, you will sometimes see them pull the trigger on an empty chamber (maybe fail to slidelock, FTF, etc.), and you will see a slight flinch immediately afterwards. Basically through time and repetition, they have developed what I think would be considered a fast twitch muscle fiber response that is effectively having them push against the recoil. So, in effect, they are actually pushing against the recoil, despite the speeds involved. Ultimately, a lot of this describes some aspects of proper follow through, in that you are resisting the recoil and getting the gun back on target, setup for the next shot.

 

[Younggun]

As pictures in my head, it seems like the lack if "passive resistance" would result in what's commonly called "limp wristing".

I bring that up only to see if we are on the same page.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

Some of this might seem a bit unrelated, but I think there are some relevant examples here that might give people a better idea. Here's a vid of me shooting Bruce Schluder's super awesome M3A1 Grease Gun (The most controllable .45 subgun I've ever shot, and one of my favorites):




Notice a few things here, as a lot of what I'm discussing about resisting the recoil and attempting to simply keep the gun in place, without trying to "fight" it. What you see here is, initially, the first shot is fired and you see a slight rearward movement at ~0:03 as my shoulder gets the first recoil impulse. From there, you'll notice that I basically set into position and barely move at all while the gun is firing, which is clearly evident by the almost nonexistent muzzle rise. Also, at 0:13 as the last round is fired, there is a slight "flinch" forward as I am no longer receiving the recoil impulse, but still trying to push against it in a passive manner. This is amplified by the open bolt slamming home, so it's not a perfect example, but the principle is still there.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

What you will typically notice on a lot of videos of people shooting machineguns, and even 9mm subguns or something with very little recoil, is they do not have this passive resistance (that's just the term I'm using for now until someone throws out a better one), and so the muzzle sometimes just keeps rising as they let the gun continue pushing up and continue pushing them back, like this: (Skip to 1:11 and 1:28 for a perfect example)




At 1:11, notice the continued muzzle rise and the shooter allowing themselves to be physically pushed rearward into less and less of a stable position. This is with a steel 9mm subgun, open bolt, and of ballpark comparable weight to the M3A1, so mechanics of the gun are not really a factor here. Now notice the shooter at 1:28. He initially has no passive resistance (at least not where it is needed), and allows the gun to push him rearward for the first several shots. Something different happens here though. At 1:31, he finds his groove and begins resisting the recoil impulse, simply trying to hold the gun in place and keep it there, and this stops him allowing the gun to force his whole upper body rearward. Notice that transition between no resistance and passive resistance. This is actually a really good example to demonstrate the difference between the two, and even with both present in one string of fire with one shooter. Ultimately it boils down to the manner in which you think about it, and a very subtle tweak in how you maintain and direct your resistance to the recoil impulse. Remember, you don't have to fight it, and ultimately if you fight, you are playing a game you cannot win. Just set things up to run consistently, and just simply try to hold the gun in place and keep it there as opposed to thinking that you need to bear down on the gun with all of your force and strength.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

Or here's another way to think about it. The gun is trying to "arm wrestle" your wrist and rotate it in a rearward arc. Don't let it, and just keep holding it in place with whatever wrist tension is necessary to keep the gun from pushing that wrist up and back. The other distinction here is where that tension comes from. There is wrist tension, tension in the various parts of the hand, forearm tension, upper arm and shoulder tension. Sometimes people might be death gripping the gun, trying their best to resist the muzzle flip, but sometimes they don't have enough tension or resistance in their wrist, and their wrist is still allowed to arc upward.

 

[kotetu]

I think of it like this. With your second wrist at full downward extension, it's like a coil spring. It doesn't affect the position of the firearm at rest. However, when the firearm moves, the coil spring is stretched out of rest and instantly attempts to move back to coiled position.

 

[Byrd666]

That was actually quite well written and almost instantly understandable. My applauds Sir.

Now, if you will, please a let a professianal P.I.T.A. ask a question that will really screw things up.

Being a one handed shooter, Dominant and strong side Right, other than the forward pressure of a TFG of the Single handed shooters grip, how would that help me control and or counteract the pressure(s) and effects of recoil. I understand the thumb being used as an aiming control source, kind of like a bodily controlled physical sight, as opposed to to the vision sights on the weapon itself. And that it can help with pref-ire rigidity or control, but, I don't believe that grip has ever helped me with recoil and follow up in any more than a minimal amount. Or am I just not paying close enough attention to it to notice.

Now to be honest, lately I've been devoting most of my time while at the range working on my "heeling" problem, (see shooting wheel chart( as designed originally for one handed shooting of the 1911)). And while I am working on that first and quicker follow up second, I'm not sure if the TFG would pertain to a person such as myself in any more than a minimal way with recoil.

If I am wrong. PLEASE let me know so I can incorporate this into my training and practice regimen

 

[SIG_Fiend]

That was actually quite well written and almost instantly understandable. My applauds Sir.

Now, if you will, please a let a professianal P.I.T.A. ask a question that will really screw things up.

Being a one handed shooter, Dominant and strong side Right, other than the forward pressure of a TFG of the Single handed shooters grip, how would that help me control and or counteract the pressure(s) and effects of recoil. I understand the thumb being used as an aiming control source, kind of like a bodily controlled physical sight, as opposed to to the vision sights on the weapon itself. And that it can help with pref-ire rigidity or control, but, I don't believe that grip has ever helped me with recoil and follow up in any more than a minimal amount. Or am I just not paying close enough attention to it to notice.

Now to be honest, lately I've been devoting most of my time while at the range working on my "heeling" problem, (see shooting wheel chart( as designed originally for one handed shooting of the 1911)). And while I am working on that first and quicker follow up second, I'm not sure if the TFG would pertain to a person such as myself in any more than a minimal way with recoil.

If I am wrong. PLEASE let me know so I can incorporate this into my training and practice regimen

No problem at all! :-)

Me, personally, I don't actually look at the "thumb" aspect of this as an actual source of aiming. Some do, but for me, I just don't even think about the thumbs in that way. Some people have similar aggressive hand positions, but with their support thumb curled down instead of straight. Some keep them straight and pointed at the target. I honestly don't think, at least in my experience, that the thumb/aiming related aspect matters much.

Shooting with one hand, actually the problem is somewhat simplified. In general, if there is any part of the grip that is lacking hand contact, and if there isn't even tension around the entire circumference of the grip, typically the gun will recoil at a slight angle to the direction where the grip/tension is lacking. So shooting one hand only, with the right hand, the gun is typically always going to recoil up and to the left. That's fine, and not a huge problem to deal with, though it does take a bit of added effort and grip strength to make up for the lack of support hand contact to even the grip out.

In general, I would say shooting one-handed, that thumb forward or thumb clamped/curled down, it probably doesn't make a big difference either way, so I would use whatever you are used to and whatever feels best and most robust to you. A lot of people shoot one-handed with their thumb curled and clamped down, so they feel more confident that they are holding the gun as solidly as they can.

Some other aspects to consider here, and unfortunately I don't have a solid or better answer, as I'm still figuring this one out and experimenting with it myself. Bent arm or locked out straight arm? Some people will advocate shooting one-handed with the arm bent, to absorb recoil. Experimenting with doing it that way, I find that the recoil and muzzle flip, that things seem to be a bit more exaggerated for me, and I feel like I'm slower in follow through and getting the gun back on target. Also, some will advocate the exact opposite, basically to heavily blade yourself to the target if possible, lock your arm out straight, and basically have everything from your shoulder to your wrist locked out and fairly tense, so you can control as much of the recoil as possible. I find that, for me, I tend to default to this method anytime a stage at an IDPA match requires strong hand only, or if I'm just practicing. I don't really think about it, I just find that I subconsciously feel like I have more positive control of the gun in that sort of a locked out position. In the manner that I do it, it's aggressive enough that sometimes I'm probably almost getting a cheek weld on my bicep, if that makes sense. Here's a video from Bob Vogel, that has a good demo of this later position:




Also, here's a vid from Dave Sevigny, with a quick example at 0:43. Slightly different, but still in the ballpark of this later method:

Here's a really solid vid from Mike Seeklander. Again, a slightly different take, but a lot of solid principles, excellent demo, and excellent explanation.





Ultimately, what I would say is to experiment. The "right" answer is going to be a bit different for everyone, as human physiology is infinitely variable, and there is never quite a one-size-fits-all approach that works "best" for everyone. So basically you have just a handful of variables to experiment with, which shouldn't be too difficult to sort through and figure out what works best:

-Grip

• Thumb forward/up
• Thumb down

-Arm

• Bent
• Locked out straight

-Stance

• Heavily bladed
• Squared to the target
• Somewhere in between

Those are the main variables that come to mind. I can't think of any other major ones. What I will say is, grip strength and dexterity is probably exceedingly more important if your only choice is to shoot one-handed 100% of the time. It might be worth considering some grip strength training for your whole hand, as well as for your individual fingers, and particularly your trigger finger. Also, other factors to consider would be finger placement on the trigger. The less of a stable hold you have on the gun, the more any excessive movement on the trigger can upset things and cause the gun to move to much. Sometimes, for certain people and certain guns, you can get more finger on the trigger and it actually work better. For example, textbook says the trigger should be centered on the pad of the tip of your finger. In some cases, it might actually make more sense to be closer to the actual first joint, so you have more leverage and can pull the trigger without struggling quite as much. Anyways, one thing to keep in mind, if that may be something you're dealing with and if it might help. Improving grip strength can go a long way towards better control of the gun in many ways, as you can effectively do the same work as before, but using a smaller percentage of your overall strength, so you aren't quite as stressed. If you decide to go that route, just be careful and treat it like any weight training, and also make sure to work your extensors so you are working things out evenly in both directions. It can be very easy to overdo grip strength training and hurt yourself.

One last thing to add. If you're shooting a 1911, and if the components of the gun will allow it (GI style thumb safety might be difficult), it is advisable to shoot with the thumb on top of the safety if at all possible.

 

[BIGPAPIGREG]

a while back I saw a video from Paul Gomez that really seemed awkward to me,...until I tried it. Really helped me improve on my shooting. It is about the 2:20 mark towards the end of the video. Hope you don't mind me posting this in your Thread SIG.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

Don't mind at all. :-) That's actually a very good visual at 2:20, of kind of what I was getting at. By canting the support wrist forward substantially like that, you are kind of directing the force of that hand "downward", instead of simply holding the gun. Does that make sense? I'm trying to put the concept in to words. What is incredibly difficult to describe (and as of yet I haven't seen anyone address this fact in a comprehensive manner in relation to pistol shooting) is the tension in the various components and muscles of the upper body, and how that tension is directed. You can have two people in basically the exact same stance, grip, and everything else nearly identical, but yet the tension they are both utilizing, and from where, could be substantially different and could have a significant effect on how the gun runs. What I think would be very beneficial for a lot of people is something simple along the lines of "Squeeze with this muscle, lock or unlock this joint, maintain tension on this joint or muscle, etc." so people can understand what they should feel when they're doing it right, versus how it necessarily "looks".

Oh, and I'll add that, for awhile, the aggressive thumbs forward method felt very odd to me. It actually felt a bit unstable, as physiologically speaking, the wrist in that fully rotated position does not allow the use of full grip strength. Over time, though, I started to get more of a feel for exactly how I needed to be applying tension, and where, and it just kind of settled in and my performance improved substantially.

 

[BIGPAPIGREG]

Don't mind at all. :-) That's actually a very good visual at 2:20, of kind of what I was getting at. By canting the support wrist forward substantially like that, you are kind of directing the force of that hand "downward", instead of simply holding the gun. Does that make sense? I'm trying to put the concept in to words. exactly how I needed to be applying tension, and where, and it just kind of settled in and my performance improved substantially.

yeah it does, what really "stuck" with me was when Paul said, "Roll the thumb forward & lock the wrist" By "locking" my wrist.......wow, recoil did it's thing, but the gun snaps right back on target. Still have to work at it though.