Ammunition Idendification Help

[Acera]

Got some unusual cartridges for my ammo collection from MGTX. Having a real hard time figuring out exactly what they are. If you guys can Id them, I would appreciate it. Lot of stuff out there on the internet, and I can't seem to fit measurements into any one selection to be sure. The lack of head-stamps is not helping Pretty sure they are from the black powder era.

First Two: What I think are a pair of .44's, might be Russian.

Left Cartridge: Straight Wall
Bullet: .433 (11 mm)
Case: 1.415 (36 mm)
OAL: 1.827 (46.4 mm)
Rim Dia: .572 (14.5 mm)


Right Cartridge: Bottle Neck
Bullet: .437 (11.1 mm)
Case: 2.263 ( 57.5 mm)
OAL: 2.823 (71.7 mm)
Rim Dia: .632 (16 mm)


(Did not mean to photograph the dent, but only good picture out of a bunch of em'. )

Third one, might have this big boy figured out. I think it's a Russian 15.2x41R.
Let me know if you have another idea about it.

Bullet: 5.90 (15.12 mm)
Case: 1,66 (41.8 mm)
OAL: 2.07 (52.7 mm)
Rim: .74 (18.9 mm)
Primer pocket: .26 (6.6 mm)

(.45 Colt on left for scale)

 

[lalonguecarabine]

I've got the latest (I think) edition of Cartridges of the World.
I go through it fairly often. I'll take another look a little later on this afternoon and see what I can come up with.

 

[Acera]

Thanks lalonguecarabine,

This next pair might be a lot easier since they are more modern rounds.

Left:
Bullet: .286 (7.29 mm)
Case: 1.93 (49.1 mm)
OAL: 2.79 (71 mm)
Rim: .473 (12 mm)



Right:
Bullet: .333 (8.4 mm)
Case: 1.975 (50.1 mm)
OAL: 2.94 (74.9 mm)
Rim: .627 (15.9 mm)

I was thinking 8mm Lebel (aka 8x50R Lebel) but the OAL is off, might be a 8x50R Mannlicher but can't find enough info on that to be sure.

 

[Texasjack]

I looked through Cartridges of the World and this is as close as I could get:
#1 comes close to a 44 Merwin & Hubert, but the dimensions don't match exactly
#2 looks like a 11.15 Spanish Remington
#3 58 US Carbine (or Musket)
#4 most closely matches a 7mm-08
#5 most closely matches a 33 Winchester.

 

[M. Sage]

AmmoGuide is now... "Interactive"!

They have a cartridge ID feature. Not sure if you have to subscribe to use it. I'm a subscriber, so I'll run your numbers through.

 

[M. Sage]

Ok, first one is a miss. Maybe re-check your measurements?

Second one is definitely 11.15mm Spanish AKA .43 Spanish.

Third is a cartridge ammoguide doesn't recognize...

Fourth one, compare it side by side with a .308 Win. If it's a match except the neck, .270 Schuster. If not, it may well be a .270 Hull & Standen ECHO, which is based on a .250 Savage (or .22-250). That's what Ammoguide is telling me...

Last but not least, the one that looks just like a Lebel... It's an 8mm Lebel. Rim is too big for 8x50R Austrian (.559 spec), but your measurement is right on for Lebel (.621 spec)

 

[lalonguecarabine]

For the last one, I was gonna suggest the obsolete 8x51Rmm Mauser.
While going through my book, I was reminded that any old cartridges could be made harder to identify properly due to the possibility of someone reloading them with bullets that were different from the original loadings: (Imagine a cartridge that is known to be round-nosed, reloaded by someone with a spitzer bullet, and then "lost" for about 50 years. Now someone fifty years later is trying to identify this oddball cartridge that is literally a mix of different things!)

 

[lalonguecarabine]

First round has the same rim measurement as 11.4mm Werndl, but the Werndl round (case and all) is much longer.

 

[Acera]

Thanks for all the generous help guys.

I don't think any are reloaded, they all seem to have factory primers and many have the sealant around the bullet which is unusual for reloads.

Here is bullet #4 (on right) compared to a 7.62x51 NATO round (sorry no .308 handy). I've got 4 of them and they all appear to be identical factory loads. I am guessing date of manufacture was 1955, so that eliminates things like the 7mm-08 as that round was developed many years later. So about the shoulders matching, what am I looking for here?

MSage, got two of those rounds refered to as #1, and here is what I am finding from each of them.

Remeasured:
Round #1a
OAL: 1.8275 (46.42mm)
Bullet: .440 (11.18mm)
Case: 1.415 (35.97mm)
Rim: .572 (14.50mm)

Round #1b
OAL: 1.829 (46.45mm)
Bullet: .4375 (11.11mm)
Case: 1.397 (35.48mm)
Rim: .5735 (14.56mm)

Refering to the third round, Texasjack do you have a link to the diagram or masurements of that .58 US Carbine? The ones I am finding from the Civil War say it was a rimfire.

MSage, great call on the 11.15 Spanish. I looked at the Wiki page on 11mm cartridges and discounted it due to it saying it was a straight cased and not a bottle neck. Once I looked up your suggestion, I found a diagram that is pretty darn close to what I have and shows the neck. Think this one is confirmed! I think the references to the .43 Spanish Reformado Cartridges (11.5mm x 57R) was throwing me off the scent.

lalonguecarabine, I am having a hard time finding anything with the dimensions of the 8x51R Mauser. Do you have a link or a picture?

Now in searching for images on these rounds, I see google pulls up my pictures from this thread quite often. Hopefully we can get them all figured out and post up some images for others to reference when they are in the same situation. Maybe update a few Wiki pages with the pictures as well.

Again, thanks for your continued efforts to figure these out.

 

[BrenGunner]

Headstamps could potentially help narrow things down to date or at least country to help. I'll have to see if I can find my headstamp book.

BTW 8mm Lebel is evil....
PITA to find it for my 1907 Remington French contract Lebel lol

 

[TXARGUY]

Here is a well researched diagram that might help you guys out. Good luck!

 

[lalonguecarabine]

Here is a well researched diagram that might help you guys out. Good luck!

...ass!

 

[lalonguecarabine]

Refering to the third round, Texasjack do you have a link to the diagram or masurements of that .58 US Carbine? The ones I am finding from the Civil War say it was a rimfire.

I also thought it was similar to the old US .58, but your round is kinda in the middle, measurement-wise. (.58 Musket case is 1 3/4" long, and .58 Carbine case is 1 1/2" long.)
Both .58 Carbine and .58 Musket are Berdan primed.
Side note: The .58 you are thinking about that was rimfire was properly called 58 Miller, but to complicate things, it was also referred to as 58 Allin, 58 Allen, 58 Ball, 585 Springfield, and 58 Musket (it predated the round we properly call .58 Musket by a few years), which was most appropriate since it was created to give new life to the million-plus muskets left over from the Civil War.

Back to the two .58 Berdan primed rounds, the breech-loading system developed by Hiram Berdan was not adopted by the US, but it was adopted by Spain, Russia, and a few other European countries. Additionally, his Berdan I and Berdan II single shot rifles were adopted by Russia and used for many years. Due to this, it's possible that they also took one of our .58 Musket rounds and changed it up a bit to suit their purposes. So it may very well be Russian after all.

 

[lalonguecarabine]

lalonguecarabine, I am having a hard time finding anything with the dimensions of the 8x51R Mauser. Do you have a link or a picture?

I'm not so sure it is a 8x51 mm Mauser (rimmed version). That was just a guess.
The biggest problem with the book "Cartridges of the World" (12th Edition), is that there are hardly any measurements given. Also, it does have over 1500 cartridges covered, but I'm sure that's not truly inclusive of every cartridge that has ever existed.
When it comes down to it, that online tool that Sage used is a boon for situations like this.

I didn't find this yesterday, but I pulled it up just now by simply googling 8x51, and nothing else:
8x51 R Mauser Short / MUNICION.ORG
The measurements appear to be off from yours, so it looks like my guess was wrong.

 

[M. Sage]

I'm starting to think that #4 is the .270 Schuster. AmmoGuide is now... "Interactive"!

The mystery 8mm has to be a Lebel... Here's full dimensions:

AmmoGuide is now... "Interactive"!

 

[Stukaman]

Headstamps could potentially help narrow things down to date or at least country to help. I'll have to see if I can find my headstamp book.

BTW 8mm Lebel is evil....
PITA to find it for my 1907 Remington French contract Lebel lol

Think aim surplus has new PPU ammo go it.

 

[BrenGunner]

Think aim surplus has new PPU ammo go it.

Thanks, I've seen it there, but never seen it in stock.

 

[Acera]

The mystery 8mm has to be a Lebel... Here's full dimensions:

Yeah, I am getting everything correct except the OAL. I can't see the OAL on your link, but wiki says it's 2.8. Can you tell me what ammoguide says the OAL is?

Even squeezing the calipers tight against the round I get 2.95. Both rounds are the same, tightly gripped by the case, and have the bullet sealant touching the brass case, not showing a ring as if the bullet had slipped out a bit. I know that 0.15 is not a lot in most things, but sometimes it's huge in the cartridge world.

Something else has me bugged about calling it a Lebel is the second slight shoulder in the cartridge. It is not a straight line between the rim and the start of the shoulder, in the middle the taper changes to a steeper angle as it nears the shoulder. This is not shown on any Lebel diagram I have found, but is evident to the naked eye, and even more so when a straight edge is placed on it.

I guess if this stuff was easy, it would not be as much fun................

 

[Acera]

I'm starting to think that #4 is the .270 Schuster. AmmoGuide is now... "Interactive"!

What has me bugged about that one is that from what I am seeing, the .270 Schuster is a brand new wildcat. These 4 cartridges appear to be factory made, and with the headstamp of 55, I am guessing quite a while ago. The one pictured has been cleaned up, the other three look like they have been in a shoe box for 50 years. Next thing, there is primer sealant, slightly brass colored primers, consistency in the coloring with older bullets, that makes me wonder about being a newly reloaded or modified round. That and the measurements are just off enough to make me question calling that one confirmed.

Don't know, what you think of my assessment?

Edited to add, this is part of the ammunition that came from Mathers100's grandmothers husband. I got it from MGTX after he bought the lot, and kept the stuff they will shoot. The box was full of old cartridges, and none of it reloads. Number of paper hulled 16 and 12 gauge shotgun shells, and some newer but tarnished shells also, only 3 boxes of new Monarch. I am guessing ammo that this ammo had been stored for quite a while. Did not appear to be a re-loader, as no reloading equipment was listed for sale. More like items he had found and kept.