Apache Vs Innocent Photographers??

[DoubleActionCHL]

I would MUCH rather they have that attitude than to break down and cry (and become combat ineffective). Look at it this way - this is the enemy. The enemy is killing a lot of our guys with IEDs and not showing themselves. That's frustrating as hell for our troops, so to get a chance to see a group of them and to blow them up is, indeed, a happy event. "What do you feel when you kill a terrorist? Answer: Recoil."

RE: there being "reporters" in the group - as others have already said, be careful which side you embed with. How many Western reporters have the Iraqis killed?

My sympathy level for these "reporters" is ZERO.

I get that. What bothers me is the "That's what they get for bringing their kids to a war." In another video, you clearly hear a soldier yell, "Damn! I blew that kids head off!" and laughing about it. I'm not suggesting they get all somber and shed a tear, but I'm not comfortable with them enjoying the killing either. I'm not being critical, please understand. I admire these guys and appreciate what they do. I'm just wondering if this might be indicative of some of the psychological (or psychopathic?) problems that might rear their ugly heads when the soldier is reacquainted with civilian life.

 

[texas skeeter]

Hey Doubleaction I look at it this way, im glad if in fact those soldiers got some joy for killing those TERRORISTS/ENEMIES KIDS!!!! because those little F-CKERS grow up to be big F-CKERS!! and act just as their parents did!! and if in fact our soldiers were remorseful about killing future enemy soldiers, well then the next time they might refrain from doing what needed to be done in the first place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GETTING RID OF ENEMY/TERRORIST COMBATANTS!!!!!!!!!!!! no matter what their age!!!!!! and when they actually return from war, im sure they are debreifed here at home and go thru whatever post war shrink/phyc evaluations to be deemed ready for society. and if a crazy gets thru, well then you cant catch everything and might as well just not send soldiers to war at all!! i prefer our men and women do whats needed to get the job done!!! after all, we've been going to war for 100's of yrs, can you actually say the ratio is high for returning soldiers whom have actually snapped and did some serious damage here at home?? just sayin.....

 

[DoubleActionCHL]

Hey Doubleaction I look at it this way, im glad if in fact those soldiers got some joy for killing those TERRORISTS/ENEMIES KIDS!!!! because those little F-CKERS grow up to be big F-CKERS!! and act just as their parents did!! and if in fact our soldiers were remorseful about killing future enemy soldiers, well then the next time they might refrain from doing what needed to be done in the first place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GETTING RID OF ENEMY/TERRORIST COMBATANTS!!!!!!!!!!!! no matter what their age!!!!!! and when they actually return from war, im sure they are debreifed here at home and go thru whatever post war shrink/phyc evaluations to be deemed ready for society. and if a crazy gets thru, well then you cant catch everything and might as well just not send soldiers to war at all!! i prefer our men and women do whats needed to get the job done!!! after all, we've been going to war for 100's of yrs, can you actually say the ratio is high for returning soldiers whom have actually snapped and did some serious damage here at home?? just sayin.....

If you believe the numbers, yes, mental illness and suicides are considerably more frequent in recent engagements than 60 years ago. And yes, we can argue all day long about the methods of identifying mental illness, etc., etc., but that's not the point. Maybe I'm being naive, but I have a problem with "taking joy in killing." They kill because it's their duty. They kill because it's what they have to do. They kill so they don't get killed. I can understand satisfaction and relief. I can understand joy that they're alive and the guy trying to kill them is not. I don't understand taking joy in the act of killing.

 

[DirtyD]

Hey Doubleaction I look at it this way, im glad if in fact those soldiers got some joy for killing those TERRORISTS/ENEMIES KIDS!!!! because those little F-CKERS grow up to be big F-CKERS!! and act just as their parents did!! and if in fact our soldiers were remorseful about killing future enemy soldiers, well then the next time they might refrain from doing what needed to be done in the first place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GETTING RID OF ENEMY/TERRORIST COMBATANTS!!!!!!!!!!!! no matter what their age!!!!!! and when they actually return from war, im sure they are debreifed here at home and go thru whatever post war shrink/phyc evaluations to be deemed ready for society. and if a crazy gets thru, well then you cant catch everything and might as well just not send soldiers to war at all!! i prefer our men and women do whats needed to get the job done!!! after all, we've been going to war for 100's of yrs, can you actually say the ratio is high for returning soldiers whom have actually snapped and did some serious damage here at home?? just sayin.....

I have to ask about your background because of some the statements made here, they seem rather cavalier and uncharecteristic.....

 

[Burt Gummer]

If you believe the numbers, yes, mental illness and suicides are considerably more frequent in recent engagements than 60 years ago. And yes, we can argue all day long about the methods of identifying mental illness, etc., etc., but that's not the point. Maybe I'm being naive, but I have a problem with "taking joy in killing." They kill because it's their duty. They kill because it's what they have to do. They kill so they don't get killed. I can understand satisfaction and relief. I can understand joy that they're alive and the guy trying to kill them is not. I don't understand taking joy in the act of killing.

Good post.
I think "taking joy in killing" is misinterpreted often. I am not sure of your background but when you face death, you sometimes react atypically. I have been shot at and found myself laughing. Yes, LAUGHING. Not because I am some mall ninja tough guy, my cornhole was sucking may pants into the darkness, but because the body and mind reacts oddly to stress.

There have been other times in a fight when all I felt was anger and rage. Recently in my law enforcement job, I fought several subjects and I can recall not even raising my blood pressure or dumping any adrenaline. Granted, these guys were not trying to kill me, just escape or assault me to affect their escape.

At work I see lots of dead people. I never break down and cry or curl up into a ball and weep uncontrollably. What most of us revert back to is looking at those dead persons as objects.
Simply bodies. Not everyone can disconnect and look at a guy with his brains splattered on the wall without feeling sadness or pain. Those who break down are not meant long for combat military service or law enforcement and there is no shame in that. We all are wired differently.

In my opinion, these soldiers engaged the enemy to save the lives of their fellow soldiers. The bond between soldiers can be a strong as family. Until you have faced hardship and death with another person, it is hard to explain. Rarely in the work place would you sacrifice your life for the cubicle monkey next to you but soldiers do it on a daily basis. They risk death and even give their lives to protect thos they love, their brothers to their left and their right.

I would slay a bus load of nuns with a rusty tin can lid to save my buddies in combat. The harsh truth is that if you do not kill the enemy, he will kill you or someone you love.
Afterwards, you can look back and deal with the demons those actions created.
Please do not take the words these men said in the heat of battle as sighs they are "crazy" or that they enjoy killing.

Not that it does not exist but it is not commonplace in my military and law enforcement experiences.

Former 11B3P.

 

[texas skeeter]

I have to ask about your background because of some the statements made here, they seem rather cavalier and uncharecteristic.....

4 yrs U.S army as a doorgunner in the 1/9th Aircav FtHood Texas from 84-88. but i was truely a snot nosed kid back them and if i new then what i know now, i'd still be in the ARMY over there KILLING THE BAD GUYS!!!!!!! as an born/bred 3rd generation american im full sick and tired of ALL THE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS THAT IS RUINING THIS WORLD PERIOD!! and in my opinion, ALL THE JACK-A$$E$ IN THIS WORLD THAT WANT TO BLOW SHIT UP FOR A CAUSE WHICH IS IRRELIVANT, THEY SHOULD ALL BE EXECUTED one way or another. i was minding my own business working to feed my family and get thru life when 911 happened!! i didnt know anyone who died that day in N.Y., but they were AMERICANS and i hurt me inside!!!! so as far as im concerned, im all for the U.S. military KILLING EVERY PERSON WHOM MEANS HARM TO THIS COUNTRY NO MATTER WHAT THEIR AGE, GENDER OR NATIONALITY!!! THATS WHO I AM!! and if said soldier enjoyed the act of killing, then so be it!! cause like i said, if i knew then what i know now I'D ENJOY IT AS WELL!! cause there isnt anything more cowardly than the sneaky act of terrorism!!

 

[texas skeeter]

and GREAT POST Burt!!

 

[texas skeeter]

and hey DirtyD, how can i become a contributer here as this is a great entertaining site. i figure if i wanna mouth off here, at least i can support the site staff with some moolah!! great threads here!!atriot:

 

[DoubleActionCHL]

Please do not take the words these men said in the heat of battle as sighs they are "crazy" or that they enjoy killing.

Not that it does not exist but it is not commonplace in my military and law enforcement experiences.

Former 11B3P.

The "joy in killing" was quoted from Texas Skeeter, who said "Hey Doubleaction I look at it this way, im glad if in fact those soldiers got some joy for killing those TERRORISTS/ENEMIES KIDS!!!!"

I was simply posing the question. This video isn't as explicit, but I've seen others where you could probably say they were taking joy in the killing. I'm not comfortable with that. That's all.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm speaking from a position of relative ignorance, as I was never in the military. I'm not so Pollyanna-ish to believe that these guys can be objective and by-the-book all the time. That's just not possible when somebody is trying to kill you. Obviously, emotions will come into play. However, there's a fine line between expressing joy to be alive or that your buddy didn't get killed, and happy that you just got to kill somebody.

This is a sensitive subject. Nobody (myself included) wants to talk bad about the guys putting their lives on the line. At the same time, just like CHL holders hate it when one moron CHL holder does something stupid to make us all look bad, we can't ignore a soldier who acts improperly. Just like the CHL holder, people (mainly the media) will grab onto that isolated incident and paint all of our troops that way.

I'm with all of you, though. They need to kill everybody who needs killin'. They should take joy in the lives they saved.

 

[RetArmySgt]

That is one way to keep from getting yourself screwed up. Alot of guys will disconnect themselves from the situation, some laugh hysterically, some seem to take joy in it. I knew one guy that when it came time to pull the trigger said all he saw was a bulls-eye target like most people use at the range. If you do not in some way disconnect from the death and you see and smell it on a daily basis or you have to deal it out you will have long term effects from it and you will be one of those that comes back all f**ked up. Most people that look at it from the outside try to say we are "desensitized" to death and killing which isnt true but we had to find a way to deal with it without getting drawn in and having mental breakdowns. When i fire my weapons i usually say something along the lines of "come and get it", "eat this" or something else. It gave me something else to think of instead of what that round did when it made impact. Which in the video it sounded like they were using the same coping mechanism.

 

[Wolfwood]

YUP!! im with Burt on this one!! and they were definately there in the wrong place at the wrong time, and it wasnt for reporting!! so they got what they deserved end of story!! i got a good idea, if ya dont want to get shot, stay out of a war zone!!!!!

YEAH!!! even when the 'warzone' is the middle of a built up city. i mean comon. when your home town is underfire, dont stick around move! drop everyhting and move!

 

[Wolfwood]

"Damn! I blew that kids head off!" and laughing about it. I'm not suggesting they get all somber and shed a tear, but I'm not comfortable with them enjoying the killing either. .

btw these are the guys that come home and get jobs on the police force generally.
thats how we get guys like the nice peace officer in oregon spraying mace into a baby carriage
"you shouldnt bring your kids to a protest [warzone]"

 

[RogerEMT]

Kill them all and let God sort them out. Videos and Photos of Army Special Ops, Navy SEALs, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard in Action - Shock and Awe - Military.com

I bet someone will say those people were innocent civilians too..

 

[Major Woody]

I'm not going to criticize the decision to shoot these guys. We don't have enough information to armchair quarterback these guys, and it's not unusual for the insurgents to pose as reporters, etc., and use women and children as effective human shields. On the other hand, I was a bit disturbed by the glee in which these guys did their jobs. Maybe I'm misreading it, but they seemed to enjoy blowing these guys up. They seemed detached, as if these were not real human beings they were shooting at; a video game, perhaps. That attitude bothers me, especially when these guys come home and take jobs as police officers or IRS enforcement agents.

That's what I was referring too. We all can understand that they have to keep each other pumped to stay alive, but this video game attitude, the mental detachment can be brought home. It's not the same as in other wars. To much glee that's all. I hope and pray that these fine young men that are trying to do a job in a political climate can be properly debriefed upon return. I see some of that detachment here, too.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

I watched the link in the OP & must have missed the laughing about shooting a kid?

 

[texas skeeter]

again, whatever methods and frame of mind it takes to rid this world from anything or anyone looking to harm the U.S. or Americans where ever they may be, then so be it and I support it!!

 

[DoubleActionCHL]

I watched the link in the OP & must have missed the laughing about shooting a kid?

That was not in this video, but in a linked video.

 

[DoubleActionCHL]

again, whatever methods and frame of mind it takes to rid this world from anything or anyone looking to harm the U.S. or Americans where ever they may be, then so be it and I support it!!

See, now I think that is a dangerous attitude. I'm a firm believer in going to war to win, but the "whatever means necessary" and "whatever frame of mind" is dangerous. Our enemies in the Middle East indoctrinate their children from the cradle to believe that we are evil; we're apes and pigs, subhuman, deserving death. Would you support that sort of indoctrination here? Teaching our kids that all Muslims deserve to die because of their beliefs or heritage? This would certainly foster that "frame of mind" you're looking for, but I don't think that's what America is about. We're better than that. Wars that are based on hatred never end until the last living target of your hatred is extinguished. That's the war they brought to us, and we can fight it without becoming the same animals they've become.

 

[Texas1911]

It's a good engagement, and if they were reporters, it was an unfortunate error on their part.

You don't go roaming about a war zone with your own personal militia near US troops and not expect to draw attention and possibly get lit up. They should have communicated with the local troop command that they will be operating in this vicinity and have clear identifiable markers. They obviously didn't, and died as a result of it. It's not the pilot's fault, or the gunner's fault. They were doing their job.

This is another reminder of the blinder mentality that the press seems to have. In Israel a few years ago a journalist caught the business end of a 120mm bee-hive round from a Merkava after his camera guy shouldered his camera to film the tanks. Tank ID'd the camera guy as shouldering an anti-tank weapon, traversed, and fired. Of course the media spun it as the Israelis were a bunch of murderous thugs.

 

[texas skeeter]

See, now I think that is a dangerous attitude. I'm a firm believer in going to war to win, but the "whatever means necessary" and "whatever frame of mind" is dangerous. Our enemies in the Middle East indoctrinate their children from the cradle to believe that we are evil; we're apes and pigs, subhuman, deserving death. Would you support that sort of indoctrination here? Teaching our kids that all Muslims deserve to die because of their beliefs or heritage? This would certainly foster that "frame of mind" you're looking for, but I don't think that's what America is about. We're better than that. Wars that are based on hatred never end until the last living target of your hatred is extinguished. That's the war they brought to us, and we can fight it without becoming the same animals they've become.

did i state anywhere in any of my posts to just go around killing everyone?? Um NOOOOOOO!! and did i say all muslims must die?? Um NOOOOOO!! and as for tactics in war, screw all that we're better than them crap!! these people are trying to kill us!! with some of the most horrific tactics. so ive plainly stated, kill ANY AND ALL WHO WANT TO DO HARM TO AMERICANS!! so use WHATEVER TACICS NEEDED TO FINISH THE FIGHT SOONER THAN LATER!!. and if you fight a war with boyscout tactics, you'll NEVER WIN!! YEAH, ask McCain how that worked out in the last election!!