Hurley's Gold

AR experts? M&P15 OR Bushy M4?

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  • gladi8r

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    Jun 5, 2008
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    Troy Tx
    Im not a fan of either rifle but i would get the bushy over the m&p just make sure the rifle has m4 feed ramps cut into it, thats when the feed ramps are cut into the locking lugs and into the upper reciever. reg feed ramps are just cut into the locking lugs. This makes the rifle more reliable in feeding ammo.
     

    TAZ

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    Between those 2 I'd go woth the M$P if you can find it for that price. Also go on line and take a look if S&W are still running the rebates. They used to give you back $100 and a couple of mags. Not sure what if anything is being offered anymore though. I have owned 2 Bushmasters and had no serious issues with either, but I have seen and heard a lot of Busshy QC issues like canted sights, non staked gas keys... I have not run into them opersonally, but I have seen friends with Bushys that have run out of windage while zero'ing. About the only negative that UI have heard of the M&P is that some of the eralier ones did not accept Magpul PMags Not sure if that issue has been resolved yet or not.
     

    mac79912

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    I would get the M&P at that price.The only other ARs that in that price range would be DPMS and Century arms.I have a DPMS and it has run flawlessly.I owned a Bushmaster M4 but had issues with it jamming constantly.Heres a pic of my Dpms with some of my other favorites.
    toddguninsurance004.jpg
     

    TexasBrit

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    Oct 20, 2008
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    Suggest you take a look at Stag Arms, a few dollars more....but worth it. Good build quality, tight upper to lower fit. Plus they have the M4 feed ramps.
     

    ChicagoTex

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    The simplest way I can answer this is by using the patented: ChicagoTex "The-Way-I-Feel-About-It-O-Meter" grading system:

    As:
    Colt - A
    LMT - A+
    Noveske - A+
    CMMG - A (A+ if LMT Enhanced bolt used)
    Les Baer - A+
    Wilson Combat - A

    Bs:
    Bushmaster - B
    S&W - B+
    Stag - B+
    Rock River Arms - B+
    Sabre Defence - B+
    Armalite - B

    Cs:
    Del-Ton - C
    Doublestar - C+

    Ds:
    DPMS - D
    Charles Daly - D

    Fs:
    Olympic Arms - F

    All my "As" will run you a bare minimum of $1100 or so for a complete rifle (and some quite a bit more, quality ain't cheap). For the price sensitive, there's no shame in stepping down to a "B-class" as these rifles serve countless folks very well (including many a police department and federal agency). For my money, I feel S&W probably makes the finest B-class rifle out there, there's something about them that is very tight and precise, especially when compared with something like a Bushmaster (which is, by all means, a good rifle, it's just somehow not quite as nice). If you're particularly price sensitive you can step into the C realm and get a rifle that works well and is decently accurate, but is difficult to have a large amount of pride-in-ownership for.
    With all due respect to the many satisfied DPMS owners out there - their sloppy feed ramps and out-of-spec chambers don't pass the litmus test of what I can recommend with a clear conscience. Maybe my standards are unreasonably high - maybe DPMS owners' standards are unreasonably low.
    Olympic's just garbage - do I even really have to explain why they're in the "F class"?
     

    navyguy

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    I am very far from an expert, buy everyon has opionion so here is mine. Personally, I'd opt for the Bushmaster, but it's a toss up. The Bushy does have what looks to be a YHM front sight which is an $80 value, and gives you a front sling ring and makes adding a free float tube or quad rail pretty easy. On the other hand the SW has a weaver gas block which is versital and also makes it easy to add a tube. I don't particularly like the permenantly installed flash deflector on the Bushy. You're stuck with that unless you want to change barrells. Were as it appears the SW has a cheap-o A2 flash deflector (nothing wrong with that, I have that on my AR, and it's okay for now) Either one is a good value at the listed prices.
     

    OldGringo

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    Like the OP i've been bitten by the AR bug myself and would like to add a question for you guy's in his thread. I plan to use this gun PRIMARILY as a HD weapon but will take it out to the range on occasion and shoot the 100 yd range. Sooooooooooooo....

    1. Do I want to buy a flat top and just put iron sights on it for now?
    2. Will the 16" barrell suit my criteria or do should I get the 21"?

    Apologies for the threadjack, and thanks in advance!
     

    ChicagoTex

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    Do I want to buy a flat top and just put iron sights on it for now?

    If you intend to, or think you might like to mount optics in the future (EOTech, Aimpoint, ACOG, etc) I highly recommend the flat topped receiver, as adding optics to an A2 Carry Handle receiver is more than a bit clumsy (though some find it works well enough).

    If you never intend to use anything but iron sights, I see no reason to spring the extra for the flat top + carry handle unless you just want to have the option if you later change your mind.

    Will the 16" barrell suit my criteria or do should I get the 21"?

    First thing's first. I think you're using two different measurements for comparison - the barrel lengths are 16" and 20" for an M4 and M16 length barrel respectively, but they gain another 1.3" or so from the A2 Flash Hider (who's length is NOT factored into the barrel measurement for labeling purposes). Therefore the difference in length is 4" and not 5" unless you go with a 14.5" or 14.7" with a non-removeable flash hider to bring it up to 16" (where the flash hider's length IS factored into the barrel measurement for BATF purposes).
    I've heard of finicky feeding problems with some sub-16" barrels with some actions but the 16" barrel with CAR or Midlength gas system is generally considered to be about as reliable as the 20" barrel with Rifle-length gas system. While some velocity would be lost going with a 16" barrel, the difference isn't tremendous and you gain manueverability and reduced weight. Accuracy also suffers, but again, only slightly so. You do, however, lose a SUBSTANTIAL amount of sight radius going with a CAR system (because the gas tube and front sight only extend far enough for a 10.5" barrel, the original Colt Commando length, leaving some extra 5" or so of unsighted barrel). Choosing a midlength gas system solves the sight radius problem, improves reliability a tad, and eases up on the action, but is not a "military standard" length, making mil-spec parts interchangeability a little more tricky than usual (but only for the barrel and gas tube).

    So, now that it's far too late to make a long story short: in general either should work well, their trade-offs in either direction are pretty small.

    Finally...
    I plan to use this gun PRIMARILY as a HD weapon

    For whatever my opinion's worth, if your nearest neighbors are less than 100 yards away, I don't think that's a very good idea.
     

    kawi jm

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    For home defense, I'd stick with a shotgun. Effective, typically perjectile will not leave the domain and very affordable weapons.
     

    TAZ

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    1. Do I want to buy a flat top and just put iron sights on it for now?
    2. Will the 16" barrell suit my criteria or do should I get the 21"?

    Go with the flat top. Costs a bit more, but is a WHOLE lot more versatile. If youre going to want to use it as a home defense gun youre eventually going to get some form of optic on that baby. Some form of red dot is a gazillion times easier to use in low light and is faster on target. Mounting optics on a carry handle is clugy at best.

    Go with a 16" OAL build. Be that a 16" barrel with a removable flash suppressor or a 14.5 with permanently attached flash suppressor. For home defense I would look toward the 14.5" barrel with the fixed FS. 14.5" barrels run fine so long as you do your part and maintain the gun properly. Every M4 in service has the 14.5" barrel. Some companies like Noveske, I believe make 14.5" barrels with a mid length gas system if you want. Not popular though so they may be $$$. I would also look for the lightest profile baeerl out there, kind of like the Noveske N4 light or some other pencil contour. Save the weight and make the rifle more maneuverable.
     

    navyguy

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    Flat top for sure. Gives you a lot of options to modify as your needs an budget change.

    I'd suggest some flip up iron sights, both front and rear Latter when you add and optic, it's just a matter of flipping them down to give you a clear few. I've got YHM on mine, and when they're down, I have perfect view of the holographic reticle of my Eotech and when they are up, they co-witness perfectly through the optic, so if the optic failed (batteries etc) just flip them up and keep on shooting. All of this of course presupposes you want an optic. If not, stationary iron sights are just fine.

    One thought on an AR for HD. .223 or 5.56 shoot relatively light bullets. Usually under 75 grain. They get their power from very high velocity. Around 3000 fps, almost three times the speed of sound. This means even if they expand, it's very likely they will penetrate multiple walls. You need to be extra careful what's beyond when you shoot in a house. I think a shotgun or hand gun is a better HD option. AR is great for SHTF situations though.
     
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