ARs to avoid, which brands are not worth the money?

[LOCKHART]

And, if you look at the actual "mil-specs" for just about ANY military weapon, and you
are a machinist, you will see quite a bit of sloppiness in those so the damn parts will
interchange with all the other sloppy parts. Remember, the equipment given to soldiers
is made by the LOWEST bidder!

 

[CDF]

This is not directed at anybody here but is more of a general observation.
There always seems to be 2 types of folks involved in every mil-spec discussion (argument?) I have ever read:

1) those who shoot primarily for entertainment.
2) those looking at a worst case scenario.

It does get pretty old hearing that everything sucks that isn't mil-spec. The only flawed thinking I can see on behalf of group #2 is whether one possesses and shoots enough ammo to actually encounter an issue with products associated with group #1. Every firearm will eventually give out, regardless of which group you belong to.
For SHTF, I will stick with my raggedy ass AK until it breaks and then use it for close quarters bayonet work if my non mil-spec stuff can't keep the bad guy at bay. On the other hand, you won't see my AK at the range too frequently since I also appreciate something more than minute of bad guy accuracy.

Having said this, I am not willing to step out on a limb and declare that a mil-spec rifle can't be accurate but I also wouldn't go so far to say that you can't protect yourself adequately and are doomed for immediate rifle failure without a mil-spec weapon.

 

[LOCKHART]

THIS is right on the money! ^^

 

[Big country]

I'm not an expert but I hear a lot of bushmaster and dpms etc... are junk. Txdps issues the bushmaster "Texas M4" to road troops and I'm pretty sure that they issue the same rifles to the state swat team, and a lot of police departments issue dpms.
I have a stag upper on a bcm lower and have only have only had problems with steel cased ammo getting stuck and not ejecting after firing. And that was only a few times with herters from cabelas haven't tried the tula steel cased yet.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

I'm not an expert but I hear a lot of bushmaster and dpms etc... are junk. Txdps issues the bushmaster "Texas M4" to road troops and I'm pretty sure that they issue the same rifles to the state swat team, and a lot of police departments issue dpms.
I have a stag upper on a bcm lower and have only have only had problems with steel cased ammo getting stuck and not ejecting after firing. And that was only a few times with herters from cabelas haven't tried the tula steel cased yet.

Your post confuses me, first you call Bushmaster junk, then tell how DPS, & Police departments use it, which at least I would take to mean they shouldn't be all that bad (hopefully)?

 

[Texasgordo]

I am pleased with my Bushwacker and MP Sport. They run good and hit where I aim. I would like a BCM or a Noveske later on but can't complain about what I have.

 

[Big country]

Your post confuses me, first you call Bushmaster junk, then tell how DPS, & Police departments use it, which at least I would take to mean they shouldn't be all that bad (hopefully)?

I guess I should have worded that better. Yes I'm saying that if they were junk they would probably not be in service with law enforcement. I know that dps torture tested the bushmaster.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

I thought that might have been what you were going for, but was not sure.

 

[Ole Cowboy]

This is not directed at anybody here but is more of a general observation.
There always seems to be 2 types of folks involved in every mil-spec discussion (argument?) I have ever read:

1) those who shoot primarily for entertainment.
2) those looking at a worst case scenario.

It does get pretty old hearing that everything sucks that isn't mil-spec. The only flawed thinking I can see on behalf of group #2 is whether one possesses and shoots enough ammo to actually encounter an issue with products associated with group #1. Every firearm will eventually give out, regardless of which group you belong to.
For SHTF, I will stick with my raggedy ass AK until it breaks and then use it for close quarters bayonet work if my non mil-spec stuff can't keep the bad guy at bay. On the other hand, you won't see my AK at the range too frequently since I also appreciate something more than minute of bad guy accuracy.

Having said this, I am not willing to step out on a limb and declare that a mil-spec rifle can't be accurate but I also wouldn't go so far to say that you can't protect yourself adequately and are doomed for immediate rifle failure without a mil-spec weapon.

FEW folks have any idea of what Mil Spec really is. Mil-Spec is a complex world, but lets focus on the AR platform as there is a mil-spec for everything you can imagine from hot dogs to guns. I have written many mil-spec and have sat on boards where we had to review them for contract award.

In the case of the AR platform it has several purposes (in no order):

1) A set of specs whereby any or many companies can be awarded a contract to produce and its components will fit all weapons regardless of manuf. I once had a M-1 Carbine made by Quaker Oats. Here the purpose is to be able to move to a war time footing almost instantly by being able to award contracts to companies that can manuf parts that are INTERCHANGEABLE

2) A set of specs that provide the performance parameters expected. In this case it driven by a level of performance, longevity and quality of individual and collective components.


What makes mil-spec so good is that it WORKS, no matter whose name is stamped on the part and it will perform to a certain level of expectation. I dare say there is a AR made that can take the use of a GI issue model. A typical issue Colt will remain in inventory until it is lost or damaged beyond repair this could be 10, 15 years or more. I arrived in Vietnam and was issued a M 16 that the guy had before me, I left and another guy got it, how long did that go on. I saw the bbl glow in the dark on more than one occasion.

Can you build better, sure, you can tighten up the specs in a myriad of ways. But remember those mil-specs are for a million end users that will use it for everything from a boat paddle to a butt stroke machine, it will go days, weeks, and years in the mud, sand and work in temps from -40 to 120 F.


If its not mil-spec then were do you get your repair parts?

 

[CDF]

OC- I don't disagree with anything that you stated.

My point was simply that people have been known to insist that anything that isn't mil-spec is junk, which I can't agree with.
Again, it goes back to the primary use of the weapon.

 

[Ole Cowboy]

OC- I don't disagree with anything that you stated.

My point was simply that people have been known to insist that anything that isn't mil-spec is junk, which I can't agree with.
Again, it goes back to the primary use of the weapon.

concur, I just posted for educational purposes

 

[jonpac07]

If I only had $700 I would wait till I had at least $1000 and buy a BCM or Daniel Defense

 

[Big country]

Correction. I have a Delton lower and a stag 2H upper

 

[Jakashh]

If I only had $700 I would wait till I had at least $1000 and buy a BCM or Daniel Defense

BCM > DD

Not gonna find a DD for under $1100 (rare) and if you did I'd still go BCM.

 

[Ole Cowboy]

I have not heard anyone talking about LaRue (or I might have overlooked the post)??? I have always been under the impression the LaRue was Top Dog in Top Gun, but have never had one in my hands...

 

[Younggun]

This is supposed to be "ARs to avoid". I guess it would get mentioned for us poor folk to avoid, lol.

 

[grasshopperglock]

I avoided everything but Stag. I could have bought the super pricey stuff. Milled receiver, etc.

I see no use other then cosmetic.

Since Roger brought it up. My accolades in the use of an AR. First was the army. Colt 20".

I physically tried to break one in basic training. I wanted to know what the rifle was capable of. I did my own set of test. On the best kinda example. Federal property.

Structure test. How do the parts hold together? Red neck tested.

Tried to break the barrel off at the receiver. I'd stretch cots. Dig holes. Beat down tree limps. Jammed it between the top of a door and roof. Turtle back hummer.

Hung on it. 174lbs of private. Barrel never even wiggled. The upper would flex. But it passed.

Finish test.

Scrapped it alone the sharpest flint I could find at Ft lost in the woods. Actually left metal curls. Tiny ones.

Beat and banged the carrying handle. Receivers, stock, barrel, sights. I say beat and bang. More like try my best to tear it the hell up.

Stood on top of the rifle as it was laid on bare concrete. Then did a little Army basic jig'....that really marked her up. You could see anodized micro M16 bits ground into the concrete. Nasty little test. More fun then anything.

I shot expert with this rifle. Every single time. And this was a raggy colt. This thing rattled. Lower didn't fit the upper for shit. Barrel was shot out. The center peg in the front sight...looked like it had been adjusted by a monkey using visegrips.


Im never going to subject anything I buy to the same abuse. But, I do know how rough I can use it. Not have a problem.

Looking back, I treated that rifle pretty good. Now the tests I performed on an M9? Let's just say, it's a good pistol. If it wasn't so big, I'd own one...

 

[Bozz10mm]

If we would have done that to our M14's back in basic, we surely woulda caught pure D hell from the Drill Sergeants, Armorer, and CO. And they probably would have taken it out of our pay.

 

[ROGER4314]

These posts are great! It's a very informative thread!

My focus is on accuracy, reliability and durability. Snob appeal means nothing to me.

Larue. I saw one recently and had a chance to look it over. NICE stuff! They have all kinds of extra stuff to secure the pins, etc and it looked like durability would improve but none of that seemed like it improved accuracy. Still, it was a terrific rifle and probably worth the money. Even so, good marksmanship practices will overcome technology. Throwing money into the rifle will not improve your marksmanship. Practice does that.

The scores are already in the rifle. It is your job to bring them out.

The AR-15 is a pretty unique beast! The bolt locks directly into the rear of the chamber, it's all in line and sights are integral into that "upper" package. It's inherently an accurate design. Unfortunately, it does poop where it eats.

I tried like Hell to beat the black rifles with classic and customized rifles and match ammo. Sorry, it can't be done without massive amounts of cash shoveled into the rifle. That includes M1 Garand, M1A1, 1903A3 and a host of others. I spent a friggin' fortune to dispute that and finally gave up and joined the black rifle shooters.

I posted this before but will bore you again with it. I spent tons of money trying to beat the black rifles. I had custom built M1's and an M1A that had every option except the rear receiver lug. None of that worked. The friggin' black rifles right out of the box would beat the crap out of those custom rifles.

I had many very fine AR's but never took them seriously. Finally, I bought an old dog AR off of a gun show table. The rifle is a 20" heavy, 1:9 twist no name barrel on an Olympic lower. It was not full floated and there is absolutely nothing upscale or fancy, custom or aftermarket about that rifle!

It was cheap and ugly as sin but it shot great. The black painted barrel and fake "ban" style suppressor got a few laughs until the firing began. That ugly thing is a veteran of many 200 yard matches and never failed once. That rifle became my main competition rifle for years! If I sold everything, that old dog of an AR will still be here.

Lesson learned? Get a decent, well made rifle that you have confidence in. Learn to use a sling. Use decent ammo and shoot the living crap out of that rifle! Spend your money on ammo and stop throwing money away on trinkets and do-dads to dress up the rifle!

It cost me many thousands of Dollars to learn that. You just learned it for free!

Flash

 

[Ole Cowboy]

These posts are great! It's a very informative thread!

My focus is on accuracy, reliability and durability. Snob appeal means nothing to me.

Larue. I saw one recently and had a chance to look it over. NICE stuff! They have all kinds of extra stuff to secure the pins, etc and it looked like durability would improve but none of that seemed like it improved accuracy. Still, it was a terrific rifle and probably worth the money. Even so, good marksmanship practices will overcome technology. Throwing money into the rifle will not improve your marksmanship. Practice does that.

The scores are already in the rifle. It is your job to bring them out.

The AR-15 is a pretty unique beast! The bolt locks directly into the rear of the chamber, it's all in line and sights are integral into that "upper" package. It's inherently an accurate design. Unfortunately, it does poop where it eats.

I tried like Hell to beat the black rifles with classic and customized rifles and match ammo. Sorry, it can't be done without massive amounts of cash shoveled into the rifle. That includes M1 Garand, M1A1, 1903A3 and a host of others. I spent a friggin' fortune to dispute that and finally gave up and joined the black rifle shooters.

I posted this before but will bore you again with it. I spent tons of money trying to beat the black rifles. I had custom built M1's and an M1A that had every option except the rear receiver lug. None of that worked. The friggin' black rifles right out of the box would beat the crap out of those custom rifles.

I had many very fine AR's but never took them seriously. Finally, I bought an old dog AR off of a gun show table. The rifle is a 20" heavy, 1:9 twist no name barrel on an Olympic lower. It was not full floated and there is absolutely nothing upscale or fancy, custom or aftermarket about that rifle!

It was cheap and ugly as sin but it shot great. The black painted barrel and fake "ban" style suppressor got a few laughs until the firing began. That ugly thing is a veteran of many 200 yard matches and never failed once. That rifle became my main competition rifle for years! If I sold everything, that old dog of an AR will still be here.

Lesson learned? Get a decent, well made rifle that you have confidence in. Learn to use a sling. Use decent ammo and shoot the living crap out of that rifle! Spend your money on ammo and stop throwing money away on trinkets and do-dads to dress up the rifle!

It cost me many thousands of Dollars to learn that. You just learned it for free!

Flash

Quoted for the truth!

War Story: After I got back from Vietnam I got my butt in school as I learned the hard way that being a Pfc laying in a rice paddy was not a career move. Money was tight and ROTC offered up more cash than the GI Bill did plus they told me I would never get called to Active Duty. Shortly after I started ROTC we got a Command Sgt Major. He was from the area and this was his retirement tour. He was the non-select for Command Sgt Maj of the Army, he was number 2, but he knew he would never get another shot at his age and time in service. Being prior service he and I buddy'd up real fast. He was real movie material and we called him Sgt Rock. Hard as nails, SF, Ranger and so many tabs and ribbons his Class A uniform pulled to that side, hash marks on his sleeves above his elbow. He was as old Army as they came and had led a life of no pain, no gain and looked it. Face like leather and could out cuss a sailor. He would take us on runs and he would run circles around us while smoking a camel and asking us if we wanted one.

And he liked to play pool...for MONEY! I don't know how much hard whiskey Sgt Rock could drink, but I had seen him down a bottle and never slur a word. But he could put on a good act. He would and win a few games, lose a few games and before long the trash talk would start. And he could sucker in some guys and the money would get big, in the thousands. Then the old Rock would go for the gold: I can beat your muckin azz and do it using a broom handle! What they did know was that broom over in the corner, LOL that was HIS broom. At that point there would be $3 or 4 thousand on the table and he matched dollar for dollar. He would get the bar owner to hold the money, and like a scene out of the movie The Hustler, he straightened up, walked over and picked up that broom, chalked it and they played pool.

Sometimes the loser and his buddies decided they had been sharked and wanted to open a can of azz whoop. The Rock was not a big guy, maybe 5' 10" max, but he was in some kind of shape. I had seen him in the gym sans long pants and shirt and those scars he had came from combat and the time he was captured and later escaped...this was one guy you did not want to fool with, bag full of constipated rattlesnakes would be more fun.

Rock told me one time that broom, was worth more that if it was made from solid gold, it had won him a lot of money over many years.

There is a special place in heaven for guys like him and I suspect I will come across him, he will calling jodies, smokin a camel and carrying that broomstick...