ATF-41P Final Rule

[Renegade]

https://www.atf.gov/file/100896/download

Some good news, no CLEO signoff

 

[Mreed911]

https://www.atf.gov/file/100896/download

Some good news, no CLEO signoff

Effective 180 days after, so no need to rush to the Class III dealer tomorrow.

 

[duckknot]

So what is changing? Im not so good with the legal speak!

From what I read it sounded like a good thing.....but like I said, not so good with the legal mumbo jumbo!

sent from: wait, where am I!?

 

[Mreed911]

So what is changing? Im not so good with the legal speak!

From what I read it sounded like a good thing.....but like I said, not so good with the legal mumbo jumbo!

sent from: wait, where am I!?

Basically, the bad stuff is that six months from now you'll have to submit 1) passport photos and 2) fingerprints done by your CLEO and 3) affirmation by CLEO of no disqualifiers for firearm possession (no criminal history for felony/domestic violence, etc.) for each trustee in your trust or member/owner in your corporation.

The summary on the linked document isn't heavy in legal-speak.

 

[ScorpionHunter]

The major points that I see are that CLEO certification is now replaced with CLEO notification, and that responsible persons of a Trust can, but generally won't, be beneficiaries. From the document:

"The Department anticipates, for example, that persons who have used a trust in the past to avoid the CLEO certification
requirement may well choose to acquire future NF A firearms as individuals once the CLEO certification requirement has been modified to a notification requirement, thereby diminishing the overall need for legal counsel among makers and transferees."

 

[Mreed911]

The major points that I see are that CLEO certification is now replaced with CLEO notification, and that responsible persons of a Trust can, but generally won't, be beneficiaries. From the document:

"The Department anticipates, for example, that persons who have used a trust in the past to avoid the CLEO certification
requirement may well choose to acquire future NF A firearms as individuals once the CLEO certification requirement has been modified to a notification requirement, thereby diminishing the overall need for legal counsel among makers and transferees."

That doesn't say anything about beneficiaries, nor should it.

What it says, translated, is "we've made it orders of magnitude harder to acquire things in a trust, so we expect more people to just make individual purposes."

Now, for EVERY item your trust buys, EVERYONE trustee must submit a signed form, photo, and CLEO-certified fingerprints/background check statements. Two trustees? Double the work. Four? Quadruple.

Oh, and you're going to have to pay for fingerprints and background checks and those CLEO's that aren't happy will set a long waiting period on the background check part.

 

[breakingcontact]

There is nothing good here. Then saying they are going level 100 then just going level 80 is not a win.

Also I think it is on page 42, they say, yeah yeah yeah, we know NFA weapons are statistically never used in crime, but they could be and that'd be REAL bad!

 

[Renegade]

There is nothing good here

ELIMINATION of CLEO SIGNOFF is massive good.

 

[breakingcontact]

ELIMINATION of CLEO SIGNOFF is massive good.

It isn't a win. We didn't gain anything. They just didn't impose everything they wanted.

I understand the point. I'm very concerned over the 41P stuff and the newly announced executive actions (I typed legislation at first) that people are going to collectively sigh and say, "oh, that wasn't as bad as I thought" when it is still really bad.

I do think they backed down from the CLEO thing because that would have allowed states to game it as they see fit (some would restrict more and some would expand).

 

[Renegade]

It isn't a win. We didn't gain anything.

Huh? Today individuals need CLEO signoff, 6 months from now they don't. How is that not a win?

 

[hink]

There is nothing good here. Then saying they are going level 100 then just going level 80 is not a win.

Also I think it is on page 42, they say, yeah yeah yeah, we know NFA weapons are statistically never used in crime, but they could be and that'd be REAL bad!

I read that part as well - using rejection information included in the report, 0.11% of the applications were denied in 2014. So to correct this problem, we'll include the requirement for all named personnel in a trust to have photos and fingerprints (at $29.98 cost each listed) and it's going to cost 0.5 manhour longer for the background for each transfer (based on 2 responsible persons). So....there's realistically and statistically not a problem since the process is working. But to correct (?) this, we'll make the process more convoluted and expensive.

As a second point - what recognized trust has two responsible persons as defined in this article?

 

[Mreed911]

Huh? Today individuals need CLEO signoff, 6 months from now they don't. How is that not a win?

Because now you need CLEO background check + fingerprints for individuals and for EVERYONE involved in a trust/corporation. It's basically a law aimed at making trusts VERY difficult to use. Aside from acquisition, trusts are useful for transfer outside of probate, multiple trustees able to possess/use an item, etc.

Also I think it is on page 42, they say, yeah yeah yeah, we know NFA weapons are statistically never used in crime, but they could be and that'd be REAL bad!

Yep. They also point out the 0.2% rejection rate for individual applications and try to extrapolate that to entity applications.

 

[Mreed911]

I read that part as well - using rejection information included in the report, 0.11% of the applications were denied in 2014. So to correct this problem, we'll include the requirement for all named personnel in a trust to have photos and fingerprints (at $29.98 cost each listed) and it's going to cost 0.5 manhour longer for the background for each transfer (based on 2 responsible persons). So....there's realistically and statistically not a problem since the process is working. But to correct (?) this, we'll make the process more convoluted and expensive.

As a second point - what recognized trust has two responsible persons as defined in this article?

Mine does. I have two trustees. Me and someone else.

 

[hink]

Huh? Today individuals need CLEO signoff, 6 months from now they don't. How is that not a win?

Current process - trust and LLC do not require CLEO signoff. In six months, trust and LLC will require all 'responsible persons' to have photos and fingerprints - same as individual - and all of the current benefits of a trust are negated.




And a separate note - does anybody else have a philosophical issue with an entity artificially increasing demand for a service that only the entity can provide?

 

[Mreed911]

Current process - trust and LLC do not require CLEO signoff. In six months, trust and LLC will require all 'responsible persons' to have photos and fingerprints - same as individual - and all of the current benefits of a trust are negated.

Not nearly all. Trusts have value outside of acquisition of NFA items. Note that there also appears to be no rule about adding/changing trustees, but it was "looked at" (having to get them background checked to do so). I'm betting that's because it would interfere with many state laws about trustee actions, so they stayed away.

 

[Renegade]

Because now you need CLEO background check + fingerprints for individuals and for EVERYONE involved in a trust/corporation.

CLEO Background check? What is that? CLEO is out of the picture now, other than dropping a note saying look what I am getting!

 

[Mreed911]

CLEO Background check? What is that? CLEO is out of the picture now, other than dropping a note saying look what I am getting!

Nope. You have to submit fingerprints done by the CLEO (or organization) along with a statement/form signed by them that they affirm the fingerprints are yours AND you don't have any disqualifiers from possessing a firearm (background check).

One per person on an individual, one per "responsible party" on a trust/corp.

 

[Renegade]

Current process - trust and LLC do not require CLEO signoff. In six months, trust and LLC will require all 'responsible persons' to have photos and fingerprints - same as individual - and all of the current benefits of a trust are negated.

He wrote:

It isn't a win. We didn't gain anything.

CLEO ELIMINATION is a WIN. PERIOD.

 

[hink]

Not nearly all. Trusts have value outside of acquisition of NFA items. Note that there also appears to be no rule about adding/changing trustees, but it was "looked at" (having to get them background checked to do so). I'm betting that's because it would interfere with many state laws about trustee actions, so they stayed away.

Yes, I overstepped with 'all.' This action still makes no sense as explained with the 248 page explanation.

 

[hink]

He wrote:

It isn't a win. We didn't gain anything.

CLEO ELIMINATION is a WIN. PERIOD.

Trust was a better option than individual transfer. This is why the trust was so popular. And there is no CLEO requirement with a trust.

We have gained nothing.