ATF / NFA trust trouble

[TalonRob]

I got a call from the ATF yesterday and they will not approve a trust transfer if the item in transfer is listed on the Schedule A.

This has never been the case before, but they say you can't have it on the Schedule A until they approve the Form 4. When I asked about a Form 1, they did not think it should be there either.

I called BS on this. When a form 4 is filed it is because a person has purchased the item. They may not POSSESS it until the Form 4 is approved, but they do own it. Guess who won that argument

So, if you are filing a Form 4 or Form 1 on a trust, don't list it on the schedule A until the form is approved.

YMMV depending who in legal looks at your trust.

Thanks,
Robert
Talon Arms, Your on-line Tactical Tool Box

 

[matefrio]

What came first the chicken or egg.....sounds like they don't know yet.

 

[Texas1911]

So, once the Form 4 is back ... add it to the Schedule A? Am I reading that right?

 

[Outbreak]

Damn. I was planning on filing a Form 1 for a lower and letting it process while I deploy. I don't want to do it wrong and not be there to take the call or receive the letter in the mail.

 

[sear!!iously]

The two form 1's I did I showed the rifles on my schedule A when I sent them in and they're were both approved. The form 4 that was just approved I didn't add to the schedule A until the stamp was received. Don't know if it's right or wrong but it's worked so far.

 

[Flight954]

How about we send 2 schedule A's. One blank schedule A and one with the product info.

 

[TalonRob]

best answer yet!

 

[TalonRob]

So, once the Form 4 is back ... add it to the Schedule A? Am I reading that right?

That is what they said.

for the record, I have ALWAYS listed my new item on the schedule A before this.

 

[30+GSXR]

yelp - That how it seems to work this month Rob

been over 6 months now because of this issue.

 

[Sidewinder]

I got a call from the ATF yesterday and they will not approve a trust transfer if the item in transfer is listed on the Schedule A.

This has never been the case before, but they say you can't have it on the Schedule A until they approve the Form 4. When I asked about a Form 1, they did not think it should be there either.

I called BS on this. When a form 4 is filed it is because a person has purchased the item. They may not POSSESS it until the Form 4 is approved, but they do own it. Guess who won that argument


Thanks,
Robert
Talon Arms, Your on-line Tactical Tool Box

Ever hear the ole saying "Possession is 9/10ths of the law" ?
You don't own anything unless it's in "your possession".
Not until the 4473 is done, do "you" own it.
It's like buying gold & getting a certificate instead of the actual gold itself.

I never include items on the schedule A till I have the stamp in my hands.
Never had any delays on transfers either.
Shortest being 43 days door to door.
30% of people are causing needless delays that can be avoided.
The only problems people have are the problems they create & they deserve what they get.

Consider this before submitting forms to NFA.
100,000 applications per year for 9 examiners = 11,111 applications per examiner per year. So each examiner handles 11,111 applications per year. If they get two weeks' vacation, that means they work 50 weeks, which comes to 222 applications they must clear per week.

Now, 222 applications per week equals 44.5 per day. Or 5.6 applications per hour. Again, remember the checklist for each application is 13 pages long..... and you have 10 minutes per application.

And remember that NFA examiner is an entry-level federal job. Your "local BATFE guy" is earning a whole lot more than they do.

This is why I discourage folks from calling to talk to their examiner. And why I am sometimes less than patient with folks who post here about screwing up their applications and asking what to do ... because currently, those 100,000 applications are arriving with about a 30% error rate ... which examiners try their damnedest to fix, in their allotted 10 minutes per application.

A few more thoughts:

For budgetary reasons, ATF has no certified fingerprint examiner on staff. So they must feed print cards into scanners, and the print scans are emailed to the FBI. The examiner cannot do anything until they get a green light from the FBI.

Trusts are no better –– trust paperwork must now go through NFA Legal Branch to be examined by a staff attorney. Again, NFA examiners are below staff lawyers on the totem pole, so they just sit and wait.

 

[2Shots1Wound]

Interesting insight...

 

[POF-USA]

Ever hear the ole saying "Possession is 9/10ths of the law" ?
You don't own anything unless it's in "your possession".
Not until the 4473 is done, do "you" own it.
It's like buying gold & getting a certificate instead of the actual gold itself.

I never include items on the schedule A till I have the stamp in my hands.
Never had any delays on transfers either.
Shortest being 43 days door to door.
30% of people are causing needless delays that can be avoided.
The only problems people have are the problems they create & they deserve what they get.

Consider this before submitting forms to NFA.
100,000 applications per year for 9 examiners = 11,111 applications per examiner per year. So each examiner handles 11,111 applications per year. If they get two weeks' vacation, that means they work 50 weeks, which comes to 222 applications they must clear per week.

Now, 222 applications per week equals 44.5 per day. Or 5.6 applications per hour. Again, remember the checklist for each application is 13 pages long..... and you have 10 minutes per application.

And remember that NFA examiner is an entry-level federal job. Your "local BATFE guy" is earning a whole lot more than they do.

This is why I discourage folks from calling to talk to their examiner. And why I am sometimes less than patient with folks who post here about screwing up their applications and asking what to do ... because currently, those 100,000 applications are arriving with about a 30% error rate ... which examiners try their damnedest to fix, in their allotted 10 minutes per application.

A few more thoughts:

For budgetary reasons, ATF has no certified fingerprint examiner on staff. So they must feed print cards into scanners, and the print scans are emailed to the FBI. The examiner cannot do anything until they get a green light from the FBI.

Trusts are no better –– trust paperwork must now go through NFA Legal Branch to be examined by a staff attorney. Again, NFA examiners are below staff lawyers on the totem pole, so they just sit and wait.

I'm just about to submit a trust, thanks for the post

 

[Sidewinder]

POF-USA

Here's few more tid bits I didn't mention in my last post.
Anyone who plans to do trust transfers in the near future should consider getting them done as soon as they can.
Consider the following info. FWIW.

In 2001 the error rate was less than 5%.
Today the error rate is a huge 30% in just 10 short years later.
That's a wopping 500% increase in the last 10 years.
That's because of the new guys who got in the classIII biz & don't know how to follow the rules & or properly complete applications for transfers.

The examiners sole job is to review the forms for correctness, then approve them (if correct) & then enter the info. into the registry.
Approved forms then get the stamp & are prepared to be mailed. (short version).
Their job is not to solve or correct mistakes although they have been doing so.
Quite frankly, they're tired of the increased problems because improper forms are time consuming, which limits the number of approvals done per day.
That means longer wait times.

Add the fact that new guys will cry BS or tell NFA how something is done.
Not good for the dealer (or individual on form 1) as that kind of attitude gets you nothing but a verbal butt kicking & on unfriendly terms.
If a dealer or individual can't play by the rules, they should go play a different game somewhere else.
The examiners I know are very nice people & a few of them are collectors or shooters themselves.
They do whatever they can to help us, so we need to show the same in return.

Keep in mind that the NFA branch approved trust transfers & could easily say "no more trust" if the error rate doesn't get fixed & soon.
Another ole saying applies here. If you're not part of the sollution, you're part of the problem.

One tip I was given by NFA when doing a form 1 for building a suppressor, is to include a diagram with demensions on a separate paper & attach or include with the forms.
That would be diameter & length only.
That's because the form 1 has no space for the diameter.
They will see that as a big help because it clarifies exactly what you want to build.
I do it myself & never had any problems. I never made any mistakes either but, I've been doing it a long time.

We can only hope the error rate goes down but, only time will tell.
In the meantime lets just do things right so we can have more toys.

 

[30+GSXR]

I am calling everyday, leaving voice mails and still waiting ...................... 7 months now

 

[Southpaw]

And remember that NFA examiner is an entry-level federal job. Your "local BATFE guy" is earning a whole lot more than they do.

Well heck if that's the case, then I want to be one... where do I apply?????

 

[Mongo]

I disagree with ATF arbitrarily cutting off legal transfers just because the bozo rate has gone up. A Trust is a legal entity recognized by law. Congress original made sure that corporations and their like legal entities could possess machine guns because many corporations were using them for strike breaking in the 30's. It would take Congress changing the law, and despite what most think ATF can not rule against things specifically written into the law. They operate is the gray areas which Congress failed to address.

 

[Sidewinder]

A Trust is a legal entity recognized by law. Congress original made sure that corporations and their like legal entities could possess machine guns because many corporations were using them for strike breaking in the 30's.

Nobody said anything about a Trust not being a legal entity. This is not the 1930's & I already know the history.

We're talking about problems created by class III dealers because they fail to follow the rules or get things done per instructions clearly written & spelled out for them.
NFA could very well suspend approving transfers for certain dealers for any reason if they fail to follow those rules, period.
It's very sad when someone can't complete forms by simply filling in the blanks.
The alternative would be to revoke class III licenses or deny renewals based on mistakes they make.

BATF has revoked licenses for type 01 dealers making mistakes in the past.
In case you don't remember, check the facts for yourself.

All dealers should read the fine print on license applications they signed if they need a refresher course.
Mistakes & rule violations are seldom over looked & are grounds for revocation of a license.
It may be time to clean house again for those who can't seem to get with the program.
I've also talked to many new class III dealers who have a serious problem because of the "I'm a class III dealer" attitude that has caused their head to swell & they want to be the top dog or authority on the subject.
They should just provide the service to paying customers & leave the self righteous attitude at home.

And to all those that keep calling NFA to check on status or bug the examiners because they have no patience, please keep calling them.
They'll just keep putting your form back to the bottom, cause that makes mine rise to the top faster.

 

[Mongo]

Nobody said anything about a Trust not being a legal entity. This is not the 1930's & I already know the history.

We're talking about problems created by class III dealers because they fail to follow the rules or get things done per instructions clearly written & spelled out for them.
NFA could very well suspend approving transfers for certain dealers for any reason if they fail to follow those rules, period.
It's very sad when someone can't complete forms by simply filling in the blanks.
The alternative would be to revoke class III licenses or deny renewals based on mistakes they make.

BATF has revoked licenses for type 01 dealers making mistakes in the past.
In case you don't remember, check the facts for yourself.

All dealers should read the fine print on license applications they signed if they need a refresher course.
Mistakes & rule violations are seldom over looked & are grounds for revocation of a license.
It may be time to clean house again for those who can't seem to get with the program.
I've also talked to many new class III dealers who have a serious problem because of the "I'm a class III dealer" attitude that has caused their head to swell & they want to be the top dog or authority on the subject.
They should just provide the service to paying customers & leave the self righteous attitude at home.

And to all those that keep calling NFA to check on status or bug the examiners because they have no patience, please keep calling them.
They'll just keep putting your form back to the bottom, cause that makes mine rise to the top faster.

In your first post you implied that people should get their trust transfers done before ATF stops them because of the high error rate of some bozzos.

Anyone who plans to do trust transfers in the near future should consider getting them done as soon as they can.

You did not specify that only the bozzo dealers would be the ones subject to having their forms no longer approved.

Based on your supposition, dealers who incorrectly fill out F4 no matter what type of legal entity would be subject to no longer having transfers completed.

You essentially are trying to create sensationalism out of nothing and start more bull shit rumors that the NFA community does not need. There is already too many people who believe that ATF has the right to invade your house to check your F4 guns.

I think you need to reread your second post before getting all bowed up and mad at me for pointing out an obvious bull shit in the post.

I too have been at this a long time and have heard so much bull shit rumors started over stupid shit. I don't know how many times over the years people tell me to buy now before ATF stops all transfers.

 

[Sidewinder]

In your first post you implied that people should get their trust transfers done before ATF stops them because of the high error rate of some bozzos.
You did not specify that only the bozzo dealers would be the ones subject to having their forms no longer approved.

I never implied anything. Read what I said & not what you "think" I said.
Yes I did say Anyone who plans to do trust transfers in the near future should consider getting them done as soon as they can.
I should have included F4's also. I stated that because 1/2 the class III dealers can't seem to complete simple fill in the blank forms & it cause transfers to take forever instead of the normal 60-90 days.
If it takes more than 60-90 days, buyers can assume the dealer did something wrong, that simple.

Based on your supposition, dealers who incorrectly fill out F4 no matter what type of legal entity would be subject to no longer having transfers completed.

You're only 1/2 right.
Dealers who can't or won't follow the rules can have their license revoked.
It's already been proven in the past. That much is already a settled argument.

You essentially are trying to create sensationalism out of nothing and start more bull shit rumors that the NFA community does not need. There is already too many people who believe that ATF has the right to invade your house to check your F4 guns.

You're totally wrong. I'm not starting anything. The Bozo dealers (as you call them) have already done that by causing needless problems that can be avoided.
We also know that ATF can't invade our homes to check F4 guns but, it sounds like you have a bad taste for ATF & if so why not keep your personal problems to yourself ?
I for one don't want to know about your dirty laundry.

I think you need to reread your second post before getting all bowed up and mad at me for pointing out an obvious bull shit in the post.

1rst off I'm not mad at anyone or anything so loose the tin foil hat & stop drinking your koolaid.
It's very clear that I have more self discipline than you as you seem to like making accusations from your make believe world.

I too have been at this a long time and have heard so much bull shit rumors started over stupid shit. I don't know how many times over the years people tell me to buy now before ATF stops all transfers.

From your post it's very clear that "you're" the one starting rumors of BS.

Hopefully the next time you post you'll leave the attitude out & have a simple discussion because it's evident that you moral compass went south.

Another note about what's happening at NFA.
They're training 3 new examiners. Don't know when they'll be up to speed but, they learning quick.

 

[Mongo]

Anyone who plans to do trust transfers in the near future should consider getting them done as soon as they can.

Sorry but every one I have asked agrees the implication of this statement was that trust transfers were going to be suspended. You then followed it up with generalities about error rates to support the statement. You may not have meant it to mean that but every one I have asked agrees with me on the implied meaning of it.

From your post it's very clear that "you're" the one starting rumors of BS.

Quote one rumor I have started in my post. There are no new rumors started by me in my post and only addressed past ones.