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Avoiding a High Noon shootout

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  • 45tex

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    I’m no longer a customer of High Noon, the so so little range in Crosby. You may not know about this place. It’s one saving grace was being so seldom busy. Only has 6 lanes and no waiting, ever. It may be partly because if only 1 or 2 people are shooting he won’t turn on the vents. Got to be saving those dollars. Or that when your time is about up he sends his boy in to sweep all the brass downrange so you can’t pick it up. I’m sure it’s not because only brass shells are allowed as they are too lazy to sort it before making a few extra bucks on your brass. Or that he marks up ammo and everything so high it makes the range fees look small.
    You are restricted from head shots at High Noon; there is a sign up, even though some targets have people on them. Why? They were too cheap to protect the pulley for the target systems. That’s a poorly engineered part. Seems if you double tap the bad guy’s temple you are at the same level as the pulley. I guess if you shot over the top of the target you would hit the ceiling baffles. I am far from an expert but in training I’ve gone down within 10 or 15 feet of the end of a few ranges. I saw a “V” baffle over the pulley or the lines went beyond the main barrier. Apparently that was too much for High Noon, so instead they restricted head shots. In 40+ years of shooting I have never seen it happen. But last night the wife had what must be a real flyer by the old man’s standards. She put a round about 4” below the top of the target and the string holding the target fell to the floor. You would think that was a 1 in a million shot. But it happens so often at High Noon the old man posted a sign saying if you shoot down the pulley you pay $35. But I could get out for just $10, the cost of the string she killed. The old coot got an extra $10 from me and a rendition of all the naughty words I have learned since the second grade.
    If a round strikes the target first then you cannot be aiming at his crappy badly engineered equipment. After all this place is where you are supposed to shoot bullets in that direction. I guess if you build a cheap range its ok since they have a printer to make signs. End of rant.
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    bones_708

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    He cussed at you? That's way over the line.

    It sound like he cursed out the owner not the other way around.

    "The old coot got an extra $10 from me and a rendition of all the naughty words I have learned since the second grade."
     

    bones_708

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    Doesn't sound like a place I would shoot at. I can see why it's never busy.

    I've never been but it's reportedly fairly popular. It just expanded a few years ago so I figger they had enough business to warrant expansion. I also have to say the rules they have are not unusual at all. These low end ranges don't have a real high margin and if you shoot the pulley or wire I would expect them to charge you. I also have trouble understanding how cleaning a range before someone shoots is a bad thing? Unless you wanted a bunch of brass that you didn't shoot. Great if that works out for you but as a bash at the range it seems weak.
     

    benenglish

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    I also have trouble understanding how cleaning a range before someone shoots is a bad thing? Unless you wanted a bunch of brass that you didn't shoot. Great if that works out for you but as a bash at the range it seems weak.
    That's not the way I read it. My reading of this:
    ...when your time is about up he sends his boy in to sweep all the brass downrange so you can’t pick it up.
    was that the range will wait till you're about finished, then go sweep away all the brass that you just shot that belongs to you.

    The range rules on their web site say:
    You are welcome to keep brass that went through your gun and you may pick it up, as long as it is not forward of the firing line.
    However, if they sweep the brass forward right before the time when they know you're about to pick it up, that's tantamount to theft. At the absolute minimum, that's the kind of nickel-and-dime-ing you to death that makes me not want to visit any business that does it. It take a particular sort of not caring about customer service to do such a thing.

    As for paying when you shoot equipment, I can see that. It's also a marker of very bad range design if it's possible to put a bullet through the target and then hit range equipment. Still, weird stuff can happen on almost any range. SGA has fairly well-protected overhead equipment. Nevertheless, a couple of years ago a short person made a high hit (though still on target) with a 12 ga slug. After passing through the target, the slug hit the overhead v-shaped protector panels exactly at a joint between two panels, completely knocking one section down.

    What I don't get is how anyone could consider it reasonable to build a range without those panels. I've seen dozens of videos on Youtube of shooting at ranges where the targets travel downrange on bare wire. Inevitably, the targets just sit there and bounce for way too long, i.e. the whole target system is unstable. If the muzzle blast of the .500 S&W in the lane next to me causes my target to move then, IMNSHO, the range is designed and built too cheaply and/or incompetently for me to use it. The video on their web site is too short to show whether the targets are unstable or not but, yeah, that's a cheap, unprotected cable system. IMO, if someone puts in an unprotected system like that one, they should be willing to eat the cost of a cut wire. Why? Because a short person hitting even slightly high on a close target could easily put one into the ceiling or cut a cable and that's entirely foreseeable by whoever designed the range.

    Side note about their web site. They've got "The Warrior Song" on their home page, set to autoplay when you open the site. There are also a ton of scripts running. I had to tell NoScript 4 times to allow all scripts so that I could count them; new ones kept popping up, including facebook. I hate that. So - crappy web site. Not terrible but not very good, either. This betrays a lack of attention to detail.
     

    bones_708

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    That's not the way I read it. My reading of this:
    was that the range will wait till you're about finished, then go sweep away all the brass that you just shot that belongs to you.

    The range rules on their web site say:However, if they sweep the brass forward right before the time when they know you're about to pick it up, that's tantamount to theft. At the absolute minimum, that's the kind of nickel-and-dime-ing you to death that makes me not want to visit any business that does it. It take a particular sort of not caring about customer service to do such a thing.

    As for paying when you shoot equipment, I can see that. It's also a marker of very bad range design if it's possible to put a bullet through the target and then hit range equipment. Still, weird stuff can happen on almost any range. SGA has fairly well-protected overhead equipment. Nevertheless, a couple of years ago a short person made a high hit (though still on target) with a 12 ga slug. After passing through the target, the slug hit the overhead v-shaped protector panels exactly at a joint between two panels, completely knocking one section down.

    What I don't get is how anyone could consider it reasonable to build a range without those panels. I've seen dozens of videos on Youtube of shooting at ranges where the targets travel downrange on bare wire. Inevitably, the targets just sit there and bounce for way too long, i.e. the whole target system is unstable. If the muzzle blast of the .500 S&W in the lane next to me causes my target to move then, IMNSHO, the range is designed and built too cheaply and/or incompetently for me to use it. The video on their web site is too short to show whether the targets are unstable or not but, yeah, that's a cheap, unprotected cable system. IMO, if someone puts in an unprotected system like that one, they should be willing to eat the cost of a cut wire. Why? Because a short person hitting even slightly high on a close target could easily put one into the ceiling or cut a cable and that's entirely foreseeable by whoever designed the range.

    Side note about their web site. They've got "The Warrior Song" on their home page, set to autoplay when you open the site. There are also a ton of scripts running. I had to tell NoScript 4 times to allow all scripts so that I could count them; new ones kept popping up, including facebook. I hate that. So - crappy web site. Not terrible but not very good, either. This betrays a lack of attention to detail.


    You might be right. Then if you are the only one shooting and want to pick your brass then I would expect you to say something. Otherwise it's just a guy cleaning the range because few people keep brass. So unless something else happened I don't feel it's right to ascribe some malicious intent. If they were really worried about keeping what would literally be pocket change in value of brass from the shooter......

    Not saying I like the cabling system or anything just that the system is pretty normal and so are the rules. If there is somewhere else better then great but their policies and equipment look normal to me. Heck better than many I've seen and used.
     

    TX69

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    Wonder what the insurance rates are on a range for trip and fall accidents? Are they required to keep a clean place so you don't take a spill even if you created the mess?
     

    Leper

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    I have been to ranges that don't allow headshots. Not a big deal. Turn the target sideways if it is stiff enough.
    Seeing the holes in the roof baffles, the strikes on the floor, and the strikes on the pulley guards, I don't think it is unreasonable. I took a chl qualifier and the person next to me was having trouble hitting paper at the close mark. Some people can't shoot.

    Unless the range is 100 yards long, or you are three feet tall, I don't see how you can get a good hit on a target and still hit the cable. I guess if the top of the paper is only an inch under the line.
    Dunno, but the phrase in my head is "his range, his rules" .
    I rarely cuss someone in anger and it usually is because of physical harm, or near physical harm.
    To each his own.
    You had a different view of the place in August.
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    benenglish

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    ... their policies and equipment look normal to me. Heck better than many I've seen and used.
    You absolutely have a very valid point there.

    And I think that's pretty sad. In this country, we have good access to firearms and shooting facilities. Since access is common, they often compete on price. Inevitably, we accept the lowered level of customer service and lower quality of facilities that results. In places where firearms access is severely restricted and something only the rich can do, facilities are always better. Having shot on ranges that cost $0.25M per lane to build, I tend to be less forgiving of the average quality of ranges in the U.S. I don't stick my nose up in the air and walk out; I'll shoot anywhere. I just like to shoot. But it sure is more enjoyable at a good range.

    None of that is a knock on High Noon. The place looks about average.

    I sure wish they'd take the autoplay music off their web site, though; that's unforgivable. :)
     

    benenglish

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    Unless the range is 100 yards long, or you are three feet tall, I don't see how you can get a good hit on a target and still hit the cable.
    Take a laser to your local indoor range and sight it for yourself. Cut a hole in a D-1 (plain old tombstone) target just above the outer scoring ring (which is still a fine hit). Set the target at 3 yards or at whatever minimum the range allows. Then hold the laser about a foot over the shooting bench (to simulate either a short shooter or someone in a wheelchair) and shine it through the hole in the target. At most ranges, the laser will not just cross the cables but it'll wind up on the ceiling.

    The reverse is true, too, if the shooter is tall. I'm not very tall but with a center hit on a D-1 target 5 yards away my bullets will impact the floor about 35-40 feet out. For any shooter in the far right or left lane, if the target is close, a hit on the outer scoring ring closest to the wall will put the bullet into the wall somewhere downrange.

    So my opinion is that hits well down range on the walls or the overhead cables really shouldn't be punished. That's a product of range design. Still, it's their range and they're allowed to make the rules so you won't find me complaining about the situation. They have to deal with idiots and I won't disparage them for trying to protect their facilities. God knows, on many occasions I've been shooting a .22 at 25 yards, hit the button to retrieve the target, and found multiple .45 bullet holes on it, sometimes from two lanes away. I have sympathy for range operators, believe me.

    OTOH, I've seen a guy standing in the far left lane doing mag dumps at a 7-yard target and hitting the wall, right next to his target, with about every third shot. Those guys don't need to be fined; they need to be banned from the range until they learn to shoot.

    Yes, the previous paragraph was a true story and, believe it or not, Mr. Macho Magdumper was actually conducting a demonstration for the student he was teaching. Sometimes I just shake my head in wonder at the capacity of humans to completely lack self-awareness.
     

    benenglish

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    Wonder what the insurance rates are on a range for trip and fall accidents? Are they required to keep a clean place so you don't take a spill even if you created the mess?
    I hadn't thought of that. Maybe that's why some ranges have you stand on grates so that your empties fall through.
     

    45tex

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    Some time back when the range was new I was a big supporter. I like ranges, they are good for the industry. And it was close. That was before he got his printer I guess, and started posting whatever suites him. Its their range and they are welcome to do what makes them feel important. I do not think the customers should pay for their poorly engineered/installed equipment. I had never seen someone shoot the string before. Because you should not be able to shoot the pulley through the target unless you are trying. If you try you should be runn oft. In all my years I never ever considered shooting anything but the target.
    I voted with my feet. Finding a place to send lead down range is easy. I don't even shoot the clothes pins at carters, but will admit it does look like fun.
     
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