British High Rise fire. Terror or refrigerator

[stdreb27]

Add a few more deaths to the phase out of r-12 and 134.

Europe for the most part uses propane for a refrigerant.

There is no way that was built to any sort of code.



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[F350-6]

There is no way that was built to any sort of code.

I disagree. It was likely up to the latest and greatest energy code that all the global warming fanatics have been pushing. (We have them here too). The cheapest R-value per inch when it comes to exterior insulation is foam, or foam plastic insulation.

Ever seen styrofoam burn? It melts at first (creating a bigger airway to spread things, then when it lights, it takes off and emits an awful smelling black smoke.

When the energy upgrades took place that included new windows, the windows and cladding were lapped in a way that the smoke and flames going up were funneled into the building (opposite of intended effect of shedding rain water keeping it out of the building. It was a 1-direction design).

If the original masonry facade from the 70's been left alone, this fire would not have spread much beyond it's source.

Now I think we're going to see a death toll over 100 due to the time of the fire.

 

[SC-Texas]

Any word on the cause?

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[stdreb27]

I disagree. It was likely up to the latest and greatest energy code that all the global warming fanatics have been pushing. (We have them here too). The cheapest R-value per inch when it comes to exterior insulation is foam, or foam plastic insulation.

Ever seen styrofoam burn? It melts at first (creating a bigger airway to spread things, then when it lights, it takes off and emits an awful smelling black smoke.

When the energy upgrades took place that included new windows, the windows and cladding were lapped in a way that the smoke and flames going up were funneled into the building (opposite of intended effect of shedding rain water keeping it out of the building. It was a 1-direction design).

If the original masonry facade from the 70's been left alone, this fire would not have spread much beyond it's source.

Now I think we're going to see a death toll over 100 due to the time of the fire.

You can burn the crap out of the outside or a building, but IBC and IFC has all sorts of code as it relates to firewalls and sprinklers.

And multi-unit dwellings are particularly stringent.

1/2" sheet rock has an hour fire rating. Heck I watched a building go that was basically a mirror image of itself and pine studs and some plywood walls.

The thing was burning so hot we it sounded like a box of 22's going off. The sap.

Half of that burned down to the slab but the firewall essentially saved the other side. Well enough for folks to go out.

Those panels sure they go. But inside that building. The way it burned. It just doesn't make sense.


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[stdreb27]

So

I disagree. It was likely up to the latest and greatest energy code that all the global warming fanatics have been pushing. (We have them here too). The cheapest R-value per inch when it comes to exterior insulation is foam, or foam plastic insulation.

Ever seen styrofoam burn? It melts at first (creating a bigger airway to spread things, then when it lights, it takes off and emits an awful smelling black smoke.

When the energy upgrades took place that included new windows, the windows and cladding were lapped in a way that the smoke and flames going up were funneled into the building (opposite of intended effect of shedding rain water keeping it out of the building. It was a 1-direction design).

If the original masonry facade from the 70's been left alone, this fire would not have spread much beyond it's source.

Now I think we're going to see a death toll over 100 due to the time of the fire.

Sooo here is some more interesting stuff. The Sun is reporting that they used panels called Reynobond Rainscreen. Here is their FAQ's.

https://www.arconic.com/aap/north_america/en/faq/faq_main.asp?cat=application

The interesting thing is IBC says anything over 50' needs to be FR rated. As far as I can tell London had their own codes.

I'm just stunned that they could do that significant of a remodel and not be forced to bring the building up to code. Which is what is typically done in the usa.

 

[Dawico]

I'm just stunned that they could do that significant of a remodel and not be forced to bring the building up to code. Which is what is typically done in the usa.

Generally, yes. It depends on the area and inspectors also.

Many times if you don't touch it you don't have to upgrade it. Companies push for this as it is much less expensive.

 

[stdreb27]

Generally, yes. It depends on the area and inspectors also.

Many times if you don't touch it you don't have to upgrade it. Companies push for this as it is much less expensive.

Sure it's regulated at the muni level.




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[easy rider]

Bottom line is:
Renovations means: make something look good.
Make something look good means: cover up what looks bad.
Bring up to code means: fix what is obvious.

The money used for the renovations is more complex. Seeing as how many things in England are more expensive then say the average city in the U.S., I would have to know what the cost would be for the same renovations to a similar size building in an average city in the U.S. to put it into context.

 

[stdreb27]

Alternately they did report that a fridge exploded. I wonder if that's true.

 

[easy rider]

Unless it's ruled arson, does it matter? Doesn't take away the fact that many people lost their life to a building that went up like a matchstick.

 

[F350-6]

You can burn the crap out of the outside or a building, but IBC and IFC has all sorts of code as it relates to firewalls and sprinklers.

That might be true, but neither the IBC or IFC has any authority over there. "International" was just the combining of the different code bodies here in the US. It doesn't have much to do with those from across the pond. They have their own versions of codes.

1/2" sheet rock has an hour fire rating.

Actually, 5/8" type X gypsum has a 1 hour fire rating in an approved assembly. 1/2" sheetrock is just a brand name of gypsum board and the 1/2" thickness does not meet the 1 hour rating.

Granted there's not a whole lot of difference between 1/2" and 5/8", but the tests and codes are clear.

And as I mentioned earlier, the masonry facade would have been plenty enough fire resistance had it simply been something like EIFS, which might have gone up just as fast, but would have flaked off the exterior as it went up. The air channel clad panels funneled everything back inside.

 

[F350-6]

The interesting thing is IBC says anything over 50' needs to be FR rated. As far as I can tell London had their own codes.

I'm just stunned that they could do that significant of a remodel and not be forced to bring the building up to code. Which is what is typically done in the usa.

IBC has no jurisdiction over there. Those panels were OK for London. Germany decided they were not acceptable, and of course the US did too. Different countries, different codes.

 

[SC-Texas]

How many are dead?

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[majormadmax]

30 as of yesterday, more are expected.

 

[SC-Texas]

79. And the ezterior cladding was not allowed in the uk

http://abc13.com/news/79-now-believed-to-have-died-in-london-high-rise-fire/2117503/

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