Buying a handgun under 21???

[txinvestigator]

To the OP: If you look up the actual law, it says what everyone has said already: you must be 21 years old to purchase from a federally licensed dealer as according to federal law. The Texas Youth Act makes it illegal for anyone under 18 to own a handgun regardless of how it is obtained.

Not exactly. Texas does not regulate the "ownership" of weapons, only the possession, carry, transfer, sale and manufacture are regulated. There is no law making it a crime for someone under 18 to possess a handgun. The law affects the person providing the handgun to the person under 18, and a parent or legal guardian can give permission.

Texas Penal Code
Sec. 46.06. UNLAWFUL TRANSFER OF CERTAIN WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person:


(2) intentionally or knowingly sells, rents, leases, or gives or offers to sell, rent, lease, or give to any child younger than 18 years any firearm, club, or illegal knife;



(c) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under Subsection (a)(2) that the transfer was to a minor whose parent or the person having legal custody of the minor had given written permission for the sale or, if the transfer was other than a sale, the parent or person having legal custody had given effective consent.


(d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor, except that an offense under Subsection (a)(2) is a state jail felony if the weapon that is the subject of the offense is a handgun.

Edited for relevance.

Where may I find this "Texas Youth Act"?

 

[txinvestigator]

And about the straw purchasing that is kind of a gray area to talk about. I strongly believe it is not illegal to have your friend buy the gun that you want, then turn around and sell it you. Reason being because you are legally buying it from him!

You are wrong. There is plenty of case law on this, in fact.

 

[randmplumbingllc]

You are wrong. There is plenty of case law on this, in fact.

They would have to show intent. That your "friend" purchased the handgun to sell it to you. Now your "friend" could buy it, not like it and sell it. There is no set time on how long your "friend" owns the weapon, just as long as he had no "intent" to just purchase it for you. Would be hard to prove "intent". No "intent", not illigal.

 

[Texan2]

They would have to show intent. That your "friend" purchased the handgun to sell it to you. Now your "friend" could buy it, not like it and sell it. There is no set time on how long your "friend" owns the weapon, just as long as he had no "intent" to just purchase it for you. Would be hard to prove "intent". No "intent", not illigal.

In cases like these, intent is actually easy to show....
I would not think this would be a law you would want to test.

 

[randmplumbingllc]

In cases like these, intent is actually easy to show....
I would not think this would be a law you would want to test.

I don't need to test this law because I am 21 X 2 + some. I disagree that intent would be "easy" to show. Now, let me say that I do not advocate breaking the law, but unless you see money change hands BEFORE or DURING the original purchase or there is a witness that will claim they have first hand information about the transaction, how can intent be proved ?

Who is to say that I purchase a handgun, go directly from the store, to the range, shoot one mag through it , decide I don't like the way it shoots, feels, etc and decide I want to sell it to my friend, right on the spot. It is my legal property and I will do with it as I please.

 

[Texan2]

I don't need to test this law because I am 21 X 2 + some. I disagree that intent would be "easy" to show. Now, let me say that I do not advocate breaking the law, but unless you see money change hands BEFORE or DURING the original purchase or there is a witness that will claim they have first hand information about the transaction, how can intent be proved ?

Who is to say that I purchase a handgun, go directly from the store, to the range, shoot one mag through it , decide I don't like the way it shoots, feels, etc and decide I want to sell it to my friend, right on the spot. It is my legal property and I will do with it as I please.

Whether you chose to agree or disagree is irrelevant. the fact is there are plenty of people in prison or on state and federal probation that thought the police couldn't prove intent. BATFE has on more than one occasion conducted stings to bust straw buyers.
Police prove "intent" everyday on folks that break in houses yet didn't steal anything.....get busted with drugs, but hadn't sold any yet...and the examples can go on an on. Point is that it is relatively easy to prove intent to a judge and even easier to a jury. Or maybe I am just always lucky

 

[txinvestigator]

They would have to show intent. That your "friend" purchased the handgun to sell it to you. Now your "friend" could buy it, not like it and sell it. There is no set time on how long your "friend" owns the weapon, just as long as he had no "intent" to just purchase it for you. Would be hard to prove "intent". No "intent", not illigal.

Intent has a definition in law, and it is not difficult to prove when the person acted intentionally. And as I wrote, there is already plenty of case law on this issue.

 

[txinvestigator]

It is my legal property and I will do with it as I please.

That sound you hear is the prison door closing behind you.

Of course, what do I know?

 

[randmplumbingllc]

Whether you chose to agree or disagree is irrelevant. the fact is there are plenty of people in prison or on state and federal probation that thought the police couldn't prove intent. BATFE has on more than one occasion conducted stings to bust straw buyers.
Police prove "intent" everyday on folks that break in houses yet didn't steal anything.....get busted with drugs, but hadn't sold any yet...and the examples can go on an on. Point is that it is relatively easy to prove intent to a judge and even easier to a jury. Or maybe I am just always lucky

Says YOU. The premise here is if "I" bought and "I" sold to a friend. You are talking about BATFE stings........ I live in North Juarez.....you are preaching to the choir here. I will say it again....if "I" bought a handgun, don't like it and sell it....there ain't a D.A. on the planet that would even file charges, much less convict me for it.

Yeah, I know, more then you think, about people getting busted for sales of narcotics that have never sold them. In those cases, there is some type of evidence, either quantity, a C.I., packaging or something to go after. If you or any other LEO walked into the D.A.s office, with wanting to charge me with making a straw purchase, you would get laughed out of the building.

You and I both know that you don't have to steal anything to be charged with burglary if you break into a house ! Show me ONE case where a person legally bought a handgun, sold it to a friend (who was legal to purchase it) was even charged, much less convicted, unless there were some otherunderlying issues and you will have made your point.

IF you are so right on this issue, how long does the law require me to own a handgun before I can sell it without it being considered a "straw purchase" ? I just can't find any State or Federal statutes on this. Can you point me in the right direction ?

 

[Texan2]

There is no requirement on the amount of time you must own a firearm. No one ever said there was. You stated in your post that they would have to prove intent. I stated that its not hard to do....
The last case I heard of was at a gun show and involved a female that bought a gun for her boyfriend. He walked up to a table (in plain view of a BATFE Agent) and pointed at a handgun and said I want that one. She then summoned a clerk and stated she wanted the gun....filled out the paperwork and bought it. They were confronted before they got out of the parking lot. HE already had the gun in HIS popssession. When questioned she couldn't tell them what kind of gun she had just purchased, the caliber or the reason for her purchase. She demonstrated no knowledge of her purchase. VERY clearly her intent was a straw purchase and any defense attorney would plea this case out before going to trial. If it did go to trial I know of no clear thinking person that would not see the obvious intent.
My 1st point in this is that intent is not very hard to prove.
Your next quote, "there ain't a D.A. on the planet that would even file charges, much less convict me for it."...thats a judgement call on his/her part. I imagine if you go to a liberal state like California/New York/New Jersey or many others, it would not be hard to find a DA that would go after you.
Very dangerous to speak in absolutes...

 

[Texan2]

Let me ask....if you bought 50 handguns a year and sold all 50 the day after you bought them...do you think it would be difficult for a USADA to prove you were intentionally buying them for others?
There was a story in the San Antonio Express News last year about straw purchases. It was a major investigative piece they did. Not long after that I was contacted by BATFE regarding an AR-15 I had on Texas Gun Trader. They had tracked a response I got from someone who had sent me an inquiry and was buying up ARs and selling them at the border. He wasn't the guy I sold mine to, but they were contacting everyone he sent an email to. After I identified who I was and where I worked they opened up a little and it seemed like an interesting case.
Point remains intent is generally easy to prove...when it is present.

 

[txinvestigator]

Says YOU.

And says me. Both folks who actually have training and experience in this. What is yours?

Personally, I don't care if you believe me or not.

 

[randmplumbingllc]

There is no requirement on the amount of time you must own a firearm. No one ever said there was. You stated in your post that they would have to prove intent. I stated that its not hard to do....
The last case I heard of was at a gun show and involved a female that bought a gun for her boyfriend. He walked up to a table (in plain view of a BATFE Agent) and pointed at a handgun and said I want that one. She then summoned a clerk and stated she wanted the gun....filled out the paperwork and bought it. They were confronted before they got out of the parking lot. HE already had the gun in HIS popssession. When questioned she couldn't tell them what kind of gun she had just purchased, the caliber or the reason for her purchase. She demonstrated no knowledge of her purchase. VERY clearly her intent was a straw purchase and any defense attorney would plea this case out before going to trial. If it did go to trial I know of no clear thinking person that would not see the obvious intent.
My 1st point in this is that intent is not very hard to prove.
Your next quote, "there ain't a D.A. on the planet that would even file charges, much less convict me for it."...thats a judgement call on his/her part. I imagine if you go to a liberal state like California/New York/New Jersey or many others, it would not be hard to find a DA that would go after you.
Very dangerous to speak in absolutes...

My bad...I should have said "most" D.A.s. You are correct, there is always an exception. To your first point....illigal intent IS hard to prove IF there is none.

As to the case example you stated.......there WAS intent because she knew nothing about the gun, BATFE was right there to witness the purchase and saw her ASK him wich one HE wanted. I am sure they heard and saw other thing too. It is really easy to show intent in that case.

Where is the intent or how would you show intent to a grand jury on this one : I purchase a handgun, leave the store, go to the range with a friend, shoot the gun, decide I don't like it. My friend says" Hey, I'll buy it, if you really don't want it " and I sell it to him. WHERE is the intent or where was ANY law broken ?

What straight up LEO would even think about arresting you, unless he NEEDED to arrest you for something.

 

[randmplumbingllc]

Let me ask....if you bought 50 handguns a year and sold all 50 the day after you bought them...do you think it would be difficult for a USADA to prove you were intentionally buying them for others?
There was a story in the San Antonio Express News last year about straw purchases. It was a major investigative piece they did. Not long after that I was contacted by BATFE regarding an AR-15 I had on Texas Gun Trader. They had tracked a response I got from someone who had sent me an inquiry and was buying up ARs and selling them at the border. He wasn't the guy I sold mine to, but they were contacting everyone he sent an email to. After I identified who I was and where I worked they opened up a little and it seemed like an interesting case.
Point remains intent is generally easy to prove...when it is present.

OF COURSE ! I am not talking about "50" guns ! I am talking about one ! I have stated the senerio enough times. My POINT is that IF I bought A handgun and sold it to someone over 18 but under 21, it is not a straw purchase. That is all I am saying.

Is it just in a LEO's nature to think that EVERYONE is intent on breaking the law ? I AM NOT !

 

[Texan2]

Not at all....you just stated that if a gun was bought right away and sold right away that intent couldnt be proven....when depending on the circumstance it can.

If you are legit in your sale then you have nothing to worry about. But when you speak in absolutes and say intent cant be proven? If a legit buyer made a purchase, went to range, shot gun, didnt like it, (too much recoil, slide caught my hand and cut me, didnt realize .45 ammo was so expensive till I got to the range...whatever) then I agree you are probably safe.
But right about the time you say intent CANT be proven some ADA will show you otherwise.

FYI...I typically always take issue with posts that state something "always" happens or "never" happens

 

[randmplumbingllc]

And says me. Both folks who actually have training and experience in this. What is yours?

Personally, I don't care if you believe me or not.

Just because you are LEO does not give you the automatic "I"m right" badge.

No, I am not a LEO, but that does not mean that I cannot disagree... even with LEO ! YOU have experience and training in prosecuting straw purchases ? Not that it means ANYTHING, but I know enough Feds, CBP, Sheriff and other LEO , hell, my better half was out rounding up Azteca members today.
My experience is dealing with s@#t too, just like LEO, except the ones I deal with are flushed down the toilet. I am a plumber. I may not be LEO, but I know enough to know that legally, you can't or aren't suppose to fab up cases, just to bust someone.

Just because you may be a LEO, doesn't mean that you know ..............awe forget it !

And lastly.......I don't care that you don't care if I believe you or not.

I don't want to argue with either of you LEO's. I respect what you do, like I said, my better half is one. Just don't tell me I would be breaking the law, when I state a scenerio that I stated. Again, with the scenerio I stated before, you would have to fabricate intent where there was none. Thats all I have been trying to say this whole thread.

 

[randmplumbingllc]

Stiffler....this is all your fault ! Just kidding !

 

[Texan2]

why all the anger? i just agreed with you

 

[randmplumbingllc]

why all the anger? i just agreed with you

NO...sorry...I have no anger with you. If you have been following the other threads on this forum, this subject has been the issue of lots of debate. From is it legal for a 20 year old to even purchase a handgun to straw purchases.

Not angry with either of you guy's. Kinda felt that I was getting the "I am a cop and I know all" from you guy's.

 

[randmplumbingllc]

Not at all....you just stated that if a gun was bought right away and sold right away that intent couldnt be proven....when depending on the circumstance it can.

If you are legit in your sale then you have nothing to worry about. But when you speak in absolutes and say intent cant be proven? If a legit buyer made a purchase, went to range, shot gun, didnt like it, (too much recoil, slide caught my hand and cut me, didnt realize .45 ammo was so expensive till I got to the range...whatever) then I agree you are probably safe.
But right about the time you say intent CANT be proven some ADA will show you otherwise.

FYI...I typically always take issue with posts that state something "always" happens or "never" happens

Everywhere I put a can't or all, put a might or most, always and never , put sometimes or most times. I agree....I usually don't like absolutes either.

My bad