Campus carry syllabus post-SB-11

[TexasProf]

I'm a professor considering syllabus language regarding firearms in my classroom following SB 11.
My draft syllabus language (starting Aug 1, 2016) is intended to be simple and clear:

"Firearms policy: In my classroom, the rule is "Don't ask, don't tell, don't show". That is, I won't ask you about your chl status or whether you are carrying, you won't tell me either, and you won't show your weapon. We will pretend as if there are no firearms in this classroom ever, and we'll all get along just fine. Anything else is a situation."

Does this forum consider wording like this acceptable, or at least consistent with the current law?

What happens if a student breaks it? I mean for example by revealing, negligently or intentionally.

I'm not trolling, I really want to know. I've thought long and hard before posting here and I'm not looking for a flame war.

 

[Younggun]

I'll bite.


Leave off everything except "please keep your CHL status to yourself" or however you choose to word it.

Nothing else is really enforceable. It's already illegal to intentionally display a firearm for show and tell, campus carry won't change that. Saying it as if it is your policy will give the impression that you don't understand the law. No reason to state what CHL holders already know.


The rest about pretending firearms don't exist, it's just silly. Saying "anything else is a situation" could be interpreted as a veiled threat. Could make students feel as if that knowledge could unfairly effect their grades which would cause issues for the school.

Also, accidental or "negligent" exposure as you like to call it is also not illegal. The law states clearly that accidental exposure is not a crime. If you notice a shirt has ridden up, politely inform the person and they will fix it, and probably be a bit embarrassed.

Aside from that, just relax. You won't know who your CHL holders are anyways unless they have students who are curious about the application process and you overhear the conversation.


One more thing, "printing" isn't illegal. Plain view is illegal, but printing (seeing the outline of the gun through clothing) is not.


I feel I've given a good fair answer and would hope you might return the kindness.

Do you own or have experience with firearms?



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[dalto]

My honest opinion is that you don't need to put anything on your syllabus.

Generally speaking, people don't walk into a room and announce they are carrying. The idea of concealing a firearm is that nobody is supposed to know it is there.

By making a statement on your syllabus you are drawing attention to the very thing you are trying to avoid drawing attention to. I don't see any upside to making that kind of declaration.

 

[A.Texas.Yankee]

I wouldn't put anything in it. CHLers are going to be a minority and are the good guys, generally. Unless you are trying to encourage or discourage certain students to apply for class. Don't even mention it. If you are going to, what Younggun said 100%.

 

[Younggun]

I feel "post nothing" is the better solution, but I hope the OP will get something from this thread to help him/her through this change to make the transition as smooth as possible for both him/her and the students.




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[Davetex]

"Firearms policy: In my classroom, the rule is "Don't ask, don't tell, don't show". That is, I won't ask you about your chl status or whether you are carrying, you won't tell me either, and you won't show your weapon. CHL holders already know this and practice this. We will pretend as if there are no firearms in this classroom ever, and we'll all get along just fine. Anything else is a situation." This statement seems immature to me, as if your dealing with 6 year olds, you're not.

You do realize that every time you go out in public there are guns around you. You just don't see them.

I do think it's a good thing that you came here to ask questions though. I also think you are over thinking this, it's just not that big of a deal. Just teach.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

I wouldn't put anything in the syllabus. It's a non issue.

 

[TexasProf]

Thanks for the replies so far. I do have to put something, because there are other students in the classroom besides the chl people and they need to know what the policy is too. There will likely be campus-wide guidelines, which I am now helping to draft along with legal counsel. But legal counsel is not in the classroom, I am.

I hadn't thought about "printing", that's helpful. There are all kinds of things that aren't crimes that are matters of student conduct. CHL'ers are not good or bad, they're like every other student. Prone to do dumb stuff from time to time. Mostly OK. I'm not afraid, I want to be correct in the ambiguous situations that will arise.

If a shirt is riding up, I can NOT approach that individual. Because I do NOT know their chl status, or their intentions, and cannot ask or assume. I have to treat negligent reveal the same as intentional reveal: I'd say safety first. If a shirt rides up, it's the same as if he pulls it out and lays it on the desk. I leave the room and call the campus police to ask the question.

But I wonder if revealing is even a crime after August 1. If open carry is legal in the rest of Texas, then on campus, the WORST that can happen to you for revealing is a campus disciplinary sanction. For having done something that is legal, but against University policy. That is, the University can ban deliberate reveals, but that doesn't make them a crime.

See? it's all new legal territory. The syllabus is key. Even the chl people may not know exactly what the legalities are, or the campus rules, as everything changes on Aug 1.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

.
If a shirt is riding up, I can NOT approach that individual. Because I do NOT know their chl status, or their intentions, and cannot ask or assume. I have to treat negligent reveal the same as intentional reveal: I'd say safety first. If a shirt rides up, it's the same as if he pulls it out and lays it on the desk. I leave the room and call the campus police to ask the question.

But I wonder if revealing is even a crime after August 1. If open carry is legal in the rest of Texas, then on campus, the WORST that can happen to you for revealing is a campus disciplinary sanction. For having done something that is legal, but against University policy. That is, the University can ban deliberate reveals, but that doesn't make them a crime.

Open carry is not legal on campus.

Accidental exposure is not a crime and nowhere near pulling it out and laying it on the desk. Night and day different. In fact you singling someone out for a non-crime can be seen as discrimination and also has nothing to do with safety at all.

 

[Mreed911]

I'd say consult your legal team at the school. Not being derisive, but you clearly don't know the law. Open Carry won't be legal on a campus at all.

As for your other students, I'd simply not bring it to their attention. It's already codified as to correct behavior under the law. Are you going to put information on knives, pepper spray and kubatons, too?

How many "over 21" are in your classes? This are the only ones (save military members) that would be eligible to carry anyway.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

Why not just link to the penal code and they can do research the law for themselves?

Getting "second hand" advice from a non-expert is not a good way to propagate accurate information.

 

[TexasProf]

Two things going on here:

I can and am required to single people out for all kinds of non-crimes. f you're disruptive in my class, there's a sanction. If you cheat, there's a sanction. If you are careless with lab chemicals, or damage University property I can call down holy hell. If you're careless with your weapon... what? Student conduct in my classroom is very much my business.

But also: Open carry was passed, right? So open carry will be *legal* everywhere. It's up to the University (as the law is written) to ban open carry on campus via University rules. But then it's not a crime to reveal, just a violation of University policy.

Or am I missing something? I have read every word of the law as passed, but I don't have all the context. That's why I'm here. Legal counsel is working for the organization, not for me.

 

[TexasProf]

Thanks everyone, BTW.

 

[Younggun]

No, it's not up to the campus to allow open carry. Texas state law will still say it's illegal to OC on campus after Jan 1, 2016.


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[Mreed911]

But also: Open carry was passed, right? So open carry will be *legal* everywhere. It's up to the University (as the law is written) to ban open carry on campus via University rules. But then it's not a crime to reveal, just a violation of University policy.

Or am I missing something?

Open carry is not legal on college campuses, now or later.

https://campuscarry.utexas.edu/

 

[Mreed911]

Thanks everyone, BTW.

I disagree with your approach, but I appreciate your tone and posture. Thanks for rational questions and answers.

You'll find that while we have different reasons for carry (open or concealed), none of us carry to CAUSE conflict. We'll all handle our modes or carry and response to conflict differently, but by and large CHL holders recognize more than anyone that the results of stupidity could easily be death... for them or someone around them. None of us want that.

Personally? If you do find out you have a CHL'er in your class? Feel safer. That's the person who just might make a difference if the worst happens... not the one who is likely to cause it.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

So you don't differentiate between accidentally dropping a beaker vs negligent or malicious throwing of one? You should.

Anyway, to reiterate numerous posts above, NO, Open Carry is not legal inside campus buildings. If they show up OCing they are breaking the law.

If they show up CCiing and their shirt accidentally rides up then it means zero and is not a crime or even cause for concern. I would draw a parallel to noticing a person's shoe is untied. A non-event.

 

[Younggun]

Thanks for the replies so far. I do have to put something, because there are other students in the classroom besides the chl people and they need to know what the policy is too. There will likely be campus-wide guidelines, which I am now helping to draft along with legal counsel. But legal counsel is not in the classroom, I am.

So what if there are other students in the classroom? Do you think they will come to assure you they are not CHL holders? It really doesn't make any sense.

I hadn't thought about "printing", that's helpful. There are all kinds of things that aren't crimes that are matters of student conduct. CHL'ers are not good or bad, they're like every other student. Prone to do dumb stuff from time to time. Mostly OK. I'm not afraid, I want to be correct in the ambiguous situations that will arise.

Except that they realize the legal implications of their actions. Those same implications they face everyday as a CHL holder outside of the classroom.

If a shirt is riding up, I can NOT approach that individual. Because I do NOT know their chl status, or their intentions, and cannot ask or assume. I have to treat negligent reveal the same as intentional reveal: I'd say safety first. If a shirt rides up, it's the same as if he pulls it out and lays it on the desk. I leave the room and call the campus police to ask the question.

It's not the same as laying it on the desk, completely different.

Calling campus police will be a waste of their time and resources, as well as a waste of the students time as they wait for you to return so the class can begin. Is this your policy, or campus policy? Sounds irrational to me.

[quote[But I wonder if revealing is even a crime after August 1. If open carry is legal in the rest of Texas, then on campus, the WORST that can happen to you for revealing is a campus disciplinary sanction. For having done something that is legal, but against University policy. That is, the University can ban deliberate reveals, but that doesn't make them a crime.[/quote]

OC is completely unrelated to campus carry. College campuses are exempt from OC and will continue to be concealed carry only locations after Jan 2016

[quoteSee? it's all new legal territory. The syllabus is key. Even the chl people may not know exactly what the legalities are, or the campus rules, as everything changes on Aug 1.[/QUOTE]

Not really. You simply don't understand the law very well. CHL holders do. We know exactly what's going on. The law is very clear about it. The syllabus is inaccurate and many parts may be unenforceable.



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[karlac]

See? it's all new legal territory. The syllabus is key. Even the chl people may not know exactly what the legalities are, or the campus rules, as everything changes on Aug 1.

Those with a CHL will know much more than you with regard to legalities, simply as a prerequisite for holding the license.

Really want to be knowledgable on the subject, and make a difference for your students? Seriously consider taking the CHL course yourself.

 

[Younggun]

Yup, even if you don't get the license. You never answered my question above though, if you've ever owned or had experience with firearms.

One kind act deserves another, IMO, and a simple question doesn't seem like all that much to ask.


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