CETME rifle?

[jake75]

I was looking at the CETME rifle and was considering buying one in the future but wanted to get an educated opinion on it first. Any opinions?

 

[phatcyclist]

If you have a lot of 7.62 NATO pressure ammunition or handload for them they are supposed to be very good rifles.The only thing I know about them is that they are not designed for commercial .308 loads. I was told this by many people and that's what ultimately made me not buy one.

 

[Hawghauler]

I have one that is fun to shoot. Century assembled most of these with new receivers and I have had no problems. I do shoot NATO milsurp ammo in mine as it is cheaper and I have no intention of hunting with it.

 

[robocop10mm]

Get to understand the system before buying one. They are roller delayed blowback operated rifles. They are very similar to the HK-91's, VERY similar. Understand what a ground bolt is. Understand how to check bolt gap. Century made some perfectly serviceable rifles, but they also made some dangerous ones. Understand the fluted chamber and what that means to commercial ammo. I have a CETME and an HK. I like them both, but the HK is superior (and 3X the price).

 

[randmplumbingllc]

Get to understand the system before buying one. They are roller delayed blowback operated rifles. They are very similar to the HK-91's, VERY similar. Understand what a ground bolt is. Understand how to check bolt gap. Century made some perfectly serviceable rifles, but they also made some dangerous ones. Understand the fluted chamber and what that means to commercial ammo. I have a CETME and an HK. I like them both, but the HK is superior (and 3X the price).

OK. I'll bite, what is a "ground bolt" ? What does the fluted chamber mean to commercial ammo ?

 

[codygjohnson]

OK. I'll bite, what is a "ground bolt" ? What does the fluted chamber mean to commercial ammo ?

When rifles with improper headspacing (long chambers) started showing up on the assembly line, Century decided the best thing to do was to take the bolt face to a grinder and "fix" the problem. They are pretty easy to spot (hint: the bolt face has been ground...). The chamber in the rifles are also fluted. Just as it sounds, they have flutes machined in the chambers. The thought was that it would aid in extraction. It very well might, but the downside is that it tends to collect a lot of garbage in the chamber and make cases worthless for reloading.

They are great rifles. I’ve shot commercial match loads through one without any issues, but I’m strictly military surplus these days. With match 308, I would easily get 1 MOA, and consistently get 1.5 - 2 MOA with South African 7.62.

 

[codygjohnson]

After re-reading the thread, It sounds like you already knew what a fluted chamber was, so excuse the explanation. Supposedly they are dangerous for thin commercial cases. Although I've yet to see any issues besides the massive dent in the case after extraction.

 

[randmplumbingllc]

After re-reading the thread, It sounds like you already knew what a fluted chamber was, so excuse the explanation. Supposedly they are dangerous for thin commercial cases. Although I've yet to see any issues besides the massive dent in the case after extraction.

No, thanks for the explanation. Never heard of the ground bolt, probably cuz I don't have any Century weapons. Interesting. I knew that the HK's have a fluted barrel, but never heard of any danger. What is suppose to happen ? Yeah, the dented cases are a drag, but they seem to get fairly straight after resizing. The worse part for me, is the ejector trying to RIP the base of the case off. I have to say that my HK rifles don't abuse the brass as much as some that I have seen. You can see the flutung marks on all the HK's after firing (that I have anyway ) and they don't seem to cause a problem.

 

[jake75]

Thanks for all the info. It's definatly something to think about.

 

[Hondo]

I know some people that own them and they are great shooters however I got one of the later "black widows" and it shot God-awful it shot patterns instead of groups until I discovered the pin holding the muzzle brake actually protruded into the barrel, also the front sight was canted a few degrees off. It also had feeding issues until I did some filing on the mag well.

I personally would hesitate to buy one off the shelf but if you do take some feeler gauges and check the headspacing, I would suggest a Saiga or a PTR-91 as a better alternative.

 

[robocop10mm]

Century did grind the bolt heads in some rifle (maybe alot of them). On the CETME/HK system you don't gauge headspace, you measure bolt gap. The gap between the bolt head face and the back of the barrel. The bolt contains the locking rollers (that interface with recesses in the back of the barrel (trunnion). The depth of engagement into these recesses is what controls when the rifle will unlock. The locking rollers are forced into the recesses by the locking piece. When there is enough wear on the combination of these parts that the bolt face comes close to the trunnion, then there is insufficient lock up and the rifle will unlock when pressures are still high. The result can be excessive recoil, excessive strain on the brass to the point of blowing out or head separation, battering of the receiver, excessive ejection velocity resulting in overly damaged brass or throwing it too far (more than 30'). In a nut shell this is dangerous.
Bolt heads were ground at the front face to create the impression of gap. This is called "false gap". To the untrained eye, it appears to be sufficient gap when in fact there is not. There are a couple of ways to fix this issue.
1. Oversize rollers. They are available in +2 and +4 sizes. This can help compensate for the wear on the parts that causes the gap problem.
2. A new locking piece. To replace the worn one
3. Remove and re-press the barrel. The barrel is set deeper into the receiver to compensate for the gap problem.

In any case the bolt head should be replaced to allow one to accurately measure the bolt gap

In my experience a properly set up rifle will not recoil badly, will not throw the brass more than 25', will not ding the case body excessively and will not set deep grooves from the flutes.

.308 ammo in the CETME/HK rifles. Commercial .308 ammo is loaded to higher pressures than 7.62 X 51 NATO ammo. The gun was not designed for these pressures. The system utilizes a balancing act of mechanical leverage and resistance to retard the blowback of the case. When pressures, velocities and/or bullet weight diverge too much from NATO standards the system can get overwhelmed and unlock early while pressure are too high. Commercial .308 brass is generally thinner than the NATO brass. Thinner brass can flow into the flutes excessively under pressure and create problems. The case is intended to "float" on a cushion of hot gas passed to the rear by the flutes. If the brass is too thin is may not float as intended because the brass will flow into the flutes blocking the gas passage. Commercial .308 brass tends to be softer than NATO brass and the extractor will tear at it. Sometimes extractor rims in the brass will be ripped off. Sometimes case heads will separate from the body.

.308 brass for reloading. I have loaded countless rounds of ammo using commercial .308 brass. If you load the ammo down to a more reasonable pressure level the brass will not be overly taxed, will not flow into the flutes as badly and the ammo will work flawlessly. I load .308 brass w/a 147-150 gr bullet and about 2 full grains less powder than book max for my ammo. Velocities are in line with the NATO ammo or slightly less. I have never had a case failure when loading like this.

 

[randmplumbingllc]

Century did grind the bolt heads in some rifle (maybe alot of them). On the CETME/HK system you don't gauge headspace, you measure bolt gap. The gap between the bolt head face and the back of the barrel. The bolt contains the locking rollers (that interface with recesses in the back of the barrel (trunnion). The depth of engagement into these recesses is what controls when the rifle will unlock. The locking rollers are forced into the recesses by the locking piece. When there is enough wear on the combination of these parts that the bolt face comes close to the trunnion, then there is insufficient lock up and the rifle will unlock when pressures are still high. The result can be excessive recoil, excessive strain on the brass to the point of blowing out or head separation, battering of the receiver, excessive ejection velocity resulting in overly damaged brass or throwing it too far (more than 30'). In a nut shell this is dangerous.
Bolt heads were ground at the front face to create the impression of gap. This is called "false gap". To the untrained eye, it appears to be sufficient gap when in fact there is not. There are a couple of ways to fix this issue.
1. Oversize rollers. They are available in +2 and +4 sizes. This can help compensate for the wear on the parts that causes the gap problem.
2. A new locking piece. To replace the worn one
3. Remove and re-press the barrel. The barrel is set deeper into the receiver to compensate for the gap problem.

In any case the bolt head should be replaced to allow one to accurately measure the bolt gap

In my experience a properly set up rifle will not recoil badly, will not throw the brass more than 25', will not ding the case body excessively and will not set deep grooves from the flutes.

.308 ammo in the CETME/HK rifles. Commercial .308 ammo is loaded to higher pressures than 7.62 X 51 NATO ammo. The gun was not designed for these pressures. The system utilizes a balancing act of mechanical leverage and resistance to retard the blowback of the case. When pressures, velocities and/or bullet weight diverge too much from NATO standards the system can get overwhelmed and unlock early while pressure are too high. Commercial .308 brass is generally thinner than the NATO brass. Thinner brass can flow into the flutes excessively under pressure and create problems. The case is intended to "float" on a cushion of hot gas passed to the rear by the flutes. If the brass is too thin is may not float as intended because the brass will flow into the flutes blocking the gas passage. Commercial .308 brass tends to be softer than NATO brass and the extractor will tear at it. Sometimes extractor rims in the brass will be ripped off. Sometimes case heads will separate from the body.

.308 brass for reloading. I have loaded countless rounds of ammo using commercial .308 brass. If you load the ammo down to a more reasonable pressure level the brass will not be overly taxed, will not flow into the flutes as badly and the ammo will work flawlessly. I load .308 brass w/a 147-150 gr bullet and about 2 full grains less powder than book max for my ammo. Velocities are in line with the NATO ammo or slightly less. I have never had a case failure when loading like this.

Good info. Thanks for taking the time. It seems that the middle ground is usually the best, where reloading is concerned. I usually start at about 10% less then the max loads. Never had any case problems, yet.

 

[sean_bart1]

I bought the PTR-91 with intentions of making a MSG90 knock off. The Rifle shoots good but I went ahead and put factory HK full bolt assembly in. By the time you spend 1200 on the PTR ,another 400 on a bolt, 800 on a HK trigger pack, and 500 on a few other German parts... I could of bought a real HK91. The CETME is a good rifle though, if your willing to spend a little on a tune up. The very first thing to do is get the bolt gap gauged and properly set. Then get a real HK extractor with a real HK extractor spring. Robocop is spot on about the brass. All HK/Clones love thick brass. Shoot thick brass and your rifle should work great.

 

[smschulz]

I went PTR because I just couldn't bring myself to drop down to the CETME (qualtity) and couldn't afford a real HK (yet).

 

[jake75]

So are the CETME's not good quality? All I could really find was the CAI ones.

 

[robocop10mm]

There is nothing wrong with a CETME. Most have safeties that are "up" to fire instead of "down" lke on the HK's.
There is nothing wrong with a Century build, necessarily. Check the bolt gap and cycle the action slowly to feel for any binding. If it is a good rifle it does not really matter who assembled it.
The main problem with a Century is they changed out stocks to gain 92r compliance. That and their patented "muzzle blast enhancer".

 

[TheDan]

The Century CETMEs were a decent buy when they were $300. Now they are twice that. You can spend a couple hundred more on a PTR91 and get a MUCH better rifle. It'll be worth saving for an extra month or two to get the PTR...

 

[Passerby]

Cetme Limited Edition

CAI made a limited run of 500 or so rifles a while back that had stainless cast receivers. I have one of those rifles. The entire assembly was done with new parts. Bolt gap is right in the middle( I don't remember offhand what the upper and lower limits are ). Looking at the gun compared to other Cetmes, it appears as though the chimps were kept in their cages while these were assembled. The welds are all very nice. The finish is nice. Everything goes back together easily and the whole gun is tight.

PTR91's are nice, but given a choice, I prefer a receiver that has minimal or no flex. I cringe whenever I read about somebody with a stamped Cetme who states that it works better after bending their receiver to compensate for some misalignment. Comparing this rifle to the later and current Cetmes, the parts and build quality on this one looks to be far superior. I would not have bought a Cetme if I could not have gotten the limited edition. They cost a little bit more - (maybe 100 - 150 dollars), but are well worth it. Since Century has admittedly put out some real garbage at times, folks tend to think that all of their guns are like that, so the limited edition Cetmes are not recognized as good guns. It's a great rifle saddled with an ugly reputation by those who have not shot or examined one.

I wouldn't trade mine for a PTR91, unless I knew where to get another limited Cetme, so I could profit from the sale of the PTR and still have a Limited Cetme.

 

[London]

Avoid anything made by Century. Their poor reputation is legendary. A PTR-91 costs twice as much but is 10X the gun.

 

[smittyb]

I have one of the early stamped Centurys. Probably the best 309 dollar gun purchase I have made. I have found to get reliable feeding I find G3 mags that wont quite fully seat and then file down the mag stop rails until they fit tightly. No big deal, just a few minutes with a file, aluminum goes quickly. I guess there is a lot of variance in surplus mag dimensions. Mine shoots as good or better than my buddies PTR using open sights. I have never scoped mine, as I don't think it is intended for that kind of work.
All that being said, with the current price of CETMEs, I would probably save up and get a PTR since J&G has them for 899 currently.