Church Sign Question

[leVieux]

A 30.06 sign in a bulletin is meaningless for LTC holders. Here are the requirments:

The sign text must be in block letters at least one inch in height with contrasting color and be presented in both English and Spanish in a manner that is clearly visible to the public.

Full information can be found here:

https://www.compliancesigns.com/media/PDF/QA-TX-Weapons.pdf

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But does the LAW prohibit “Church Carry” w/o written permission from Pastor, like here in LA ?

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[General Zod]

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But does the LAW prohibit “Church Carry” w/o written permission from Pastor, like here in LA ?

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No.

 

[leVieux]

It is pretty hard, especially with the changes a few years a back.

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Depends on who is the DA in your County.

Several years back, at a Medical Meeting @ Johns Hopkins, my PPKS went everywhere in Baltimore.

Later I learned it was a Felony crime there. Even w/ 2 States’ carry permits.

I just don’t go to those idiot States any more. Stay in our area, AR, TX, MS, LA, AL, FL, GA, TN, & NC.

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[Renegade]

Depends on who is the DA in your County.

The hard part is it ever getting to the DA

 

[glenbo]

So how many angels can dance on a pinhead?

 

[hornetguy]

If you're going to bring the subject up with the pastor (particularly one who has, in the past, felt the need to specifically announce that carrying firearms is not allowed in his congregation) you need to be prepared to find a new church to go to just in case it goes poorly because it sounds like the irrational anti-gun spirit is stronger than any other spirit he may be feeling, and this sort of thing could make you the focus of a lot of hostility from the pulpit.

There's a chance you could talk sense to him, but a more likely chance that he already "knows" all he cares to on the subject and would not welcome any facts or logic to threaten his views.

Personally, I think you should find a church where the "pastor" is not the boss.
Churches were set up to be overseen by a group of elders, not one single person.... this is a really good example of why. Having one person as the dictator is not how the church is supposed to be.
I'd find another church... one that is more in line with scripture. But that's just me.

 

[jrbfishn]

The statute prescribes the appearance of signs, not when you are handed written notice. Can you point to where the statute points to the font that a written notice is? I know what a sign requires but written notice may be handed to an individual and be nothing more than a card. @Renegade is correct.

Renegade, and yiu are not correct unless they can prove he was given the flyer, and read it. Otherwise, no notice given.

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[ZX9RCAM]

Renegade, and yiu are not correct unless they can prove he was given the flyer, and read it. Otherwise, no notice given.

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If they read this thread they can prove it.

 

[Renegade]

it is not clear to me a written document or verbal notice are forever notice, meaning you can give them once and they are binding forever.

So notice would have to be given each time person enters property.

No different than places that take down or put up signs. Or land owners who put up or take down fences, purple paint etc.

If on the time you enter there is no notice, then there is no notice. Does not matter what happened yesterday. Owner changed his mind.

 

[Renegade]

I am also unaware of a single case where an LEO made an arrest without the person getting verbal notice to leave now.

So in practical application, this makes signs and written communications moot. Signs and written communication are indications of what might happen if caught.

I have seen OC’ers enter a 100% no notice place and upon having their gun seen, they got valid notice and had to leave.

 

[toddnjoyce]

If they read this thread they can prove it.

No, they can’t. TLDR: There’s a real difference between reading the statutes and understanding how those statutes apply in the operation of the law.

The question was asked by a user name that isn’t a first/last name. No specific dates or locations were given. No admission of actively committing an alleged offense was made.

Trespass of any kind is a point and space in time offense; you can’t charge me today for allegedly trespassing yesterday, especially if you’re no longer at the location where the alleged offense took place.

Here’s a specific example: I had a consult for a colonoscopy on Wednesday afternoon. The facility is not a 46.03 eligible location. It was posted only with a 30.06 sign that met the requirements of the code; there was no .05 or .07 signage of any kind.

As an LTC holder, I concealed carried right past it. I was never asked to leave and I left of my own free will. If that office called 911 today and an LEO showed up, the LEO would ask whether I was still there or not. Since I’m no longer there, the LEO has no basis o trespass me.

Let’s look at the code:

CHAPTER 14. ARREST WITHOUT WARRANT

Art. 14.01. OFFENSE WITHIN VIEW. (a) A peace officer or any other person, may, without a warrant, arrest an offender when the offense is committed in his presence or within his view, if the offense is one classed as a felony or as an offense against the public peace.
(b) A peace officer may arrest an offender without a warrant for any offense committed in his presence or within his view.

If the LEO does not witness the misdemeanor offense of trespass with a handgun, the LEO cannot cite or arrest the alleged offender.

The LEO or private complainant has the option to ask a magistrate to issue an arrest or summons.

CHAPTER 15. ARREST UNDER WARRANT

Art. 15.03. MAGISTRATE MAY ISSUE WARRANT OR SUMMONS. (a) A magistrate may issue a warrant of arrest or a summons:
..
2. When any person shall make oath before the magistrate that another has committed some offense against the laws of the State; …
(b) A summons may be issued in any case where a warrant may be issued, and shall be in the same form as the warrant except that it shall summon the defendant to appear before a magistrate at a stated time and place. The summons shall be served upon a defendant by delivering a copy to him personally, or by leaving it at his dwelling house or usual place of abode with some person of suitable age and discretion then residing therein or by mailing it to the defendant's last known address. If a defendant fails to appear in response to the summons a warrant shall be issued.

The following must be included on the warrant

Art. 15.05. REQUISITES OF COMPLAINT. The complaint shall be sufficient, without regard to form, if it have these substantial requisites:
1. It must state the name of the accused, if known, and if not known, must give some reasonably definite description of him.
2. It must show that the accused has committed some offense against the laws of the State, either directly or that the affiant has good reason to believe, and does believe, that the accused has committed such offense.
3. It must state the time and place of the commission of the offense, as definitely as can be done by the affiant.
4. It must be signed by the affiant by writing his name or affixing his mark.

So, after the fact, the complainant has to establish with the judge that there probable cause of an offense for the summons or warrant to be issued.

Even with the information above, the doctor’s office still has to convince the judge that I am also toddnjoyce for the judge to issue the summons. And if a summons comes to me, I will submit notice of one or more defenses to prosecution and the magistrate will either discharge the summons or direct a jury that reasonable doubt exists and I must be found not guilty.

 

[toddnjoyce]

I am also unaware of a single case where an LEO made an arrest without the person getting verbal notice to leave now.

See my post above for the why. It’s a Class C misdemeanor; the officer has to witness the event and the alleged offender has a DTP directing reasonable doubt until given oral notice and then failing to leave.

 

[Renegade]

See my post above for the why. It’s a Class C misdemeanor; the officer has to witness the event and the alleged offender has a DTP directing reasonable doubt until given oral notice and then failing to leave.

That is not what I meant.

I meant a place has valid notice like a sign. A person is observed with a gun. Owner calls police and tells police guy over there has a gun, points to sign, and LEO arrests person without any chance to leave.

In all cases I know, person is confronted by owner or LEO and given verbal notice in front of LEO thus removing and doubt of legality of notice.

 

[toddnjoyce]

That is not what I meant.

I meant a place has valid notice like a sign. A person is observed with a gun. Owner calls police and tells police guy over there has a gun, points to sign, and LEO arrests person without any chance to leave….

Looking at DPS’ data for arrests against 30.06 or .07, with just below half a specific to after oral communication, with the other 5 also likely to have been given oral notice based on the PC reference.

* filtered for all 30.06 and 30.07 instances

Then, when we go to convictions data, .neither .06 nor .07 are even populated

* filtered for all 30.05, 30.06 and 30.07 instances

Historically, I seem to recall three .07 convictions from the 2011 -2015 data, but that I can’t find that historical data on DPS’ arrests and convictions data sight any longer.

 

[alternative]

Renegade, and yiu are not correct unless they can prove he was given the flyer, and read it. Otherwise, no notice given.

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The op posed the question admitting he had read the flyer. He was asking a question as to whether he had been given notice. Nobody is taking him to court, just trying to answer his question. Of course he can always perjure himself and say he didn't read it if it ever went to court (unlikely).
This comes down to basically what does it take to get written notice for 30.05/06/07. Does a flyer handed out to all members count? Does it have to be on a card? Does it have to be given each time someone enters the building? Is one notice good for eternity? If a person goes into the church open carrying and gets a written notice that he doesn't read without any other notice until police arrive was he given notice? Consult your local attorney.
Smart person would find another church.

 

[Eastexasrick]

what does it take to get written notice for 30.05/06/07. Does a flyer handed out to all members count? Does it have to be on a card? Does it have to be given each time someone enters the building? Is one notice good for eternity? If a person goes into the church open carrying and gets a written notice that he doesn't read without any other notice until police arrive was he given notice?

All answered in detail above. If he has any follow up questions, let him speak.

 

[Renegade]

Historically, I seem to recall three .07 convictions from the 2011 -2015 data, but that I can’t find that historical data on DPS’ arrests and convictions data sight any longer.

OC, thus 30.07, did not pass till summer 2015. Not sure if it went into effect 09/01/15 or 01/01/16

Either way though the conviction window would have been very small

 

[Renegade]

If a person goes into the church open carrying and gets a written notice that he doesn't read without any other notice until police arrive was he given notice?

That is my point above. He will not be cited for ignoring the prior notice, whether verbal, written or a sign. He will be cited for failing to depart when Given notice in front of an LEO.

The mental gymnastics we play over validity of written comms or signs will not be what gets you cited.

The new law makes it very hard to get cited. Just leave when confronted

 

[alternative]

A 30.06 sign in a bulletin is meaningless for LTC holders. Here are the requirments:

The sign text must be in block letters at least one inch in height with contrasting color and be presented in both English and Spanish in a manner that is clearly visible to the public.

Full information can be found here:

https://www.compliancesigns.com/media/PDF/QA-TX-Weapons.pdf

You are mixing up a sign with written notice. Requirements are different.

 

[Eastexasrick]

A

You are mixing up a sign with written notice. Requirements are different.

All summed up nicely in post 118. OP does not appear to have any further questions.