Consequences

[Big Green]

Just read an article about a shooting at a Costco in Ca. and got to wondering about laws in Texas. If you interject yourself into the situation, say from across the store where you are not in immediate harm, how does that work? Prior to LEOs showing up, can you stop the situation? I know in the church shooting the other year someone did, but was he lucky in his response or was it reasonable?

Are you protected like a Good Samaritan law?

For the record I haven’t taken my LTC class where I assume this may be covered.

 

[candcallen]

First internet lawyers advice is worth what you pay for it. That said, and since I have a holiday inn express frequent stay account I'll give it a shot. Again, dont listen to me or everyone else who chimes in as it wont be worth squat legally.

Beside that I feel long posts are in this threads future.

Im Assuming you're talking about a deadly force incident.

No, theres no good samaritan law that applies to a use of force incident that I'm aware of. In many cases if someone is committing a felony and someone gets killed during the incident they are charged with murder regardless of weather they caused it. Example a get away driver gets charged with murder if his partner kills someone even if he was not involved in the actual murder. This said, in no way protects you if you respond and kill or hurt the wrong person for what ever reason. It would be the luck of the draw weather you faced criminal or civil jeopardy for your actions. Plus you have to live with it.

Should you respond?
Theres a dozen variables to take into account like...
Do you know what's going on, who is the bad guy in the situation?
Do you have loved ones yourself you need to protect first?
Can you intervene safely?
What will you look like to police or other armed citizens who know nothing about the actual incident?
Are you even capable of intervening physically or ability wise?
And a crapload more. Possibly even exposing yourself to legal jeopardy for no other reason except costco's are all no gun zones last I checked. Just cause you said Costco, but it goes for other places people carry concealed in as they refuse to abdicate their and loved ones responsiblity to defend themselves to a sign.

You have you and your loved ones as a primary responsibility. Unless you are 100 percent clear on whose the bad guy, like obvious active shooter, you're taking a huge chance on intervening as you wouldnt be the first guy shooting the wrong party. You also wouldnt be the first good samaritan shot by police or another person acting like you did and intervening with out all the critical facts.

Be a good witness after insuring your family's safety.

If you want to see an example of a clusterphuck kinda like you described research the Waco texas twin peaks shootout. Some biker gangs decided to act stupid at an otherwise normal meet n greet. There were many complicated parts and pieces to the incident such as the cops were close by having had word something was going to happen but there were lots of innocent people swept up in the mess.

There were non participants, i.e. not involved in the premeditated fight/assault, shot by police and the cops and corrupt/ignorant DA arrested everyone who road a motorcycle to the event as a gang member participating in a shootout. They also search every car anywhere near looking for guns and went after those folks too. Most arrested and charged were held on huge bonds, had their lives ruined and went bankrupt fighting the bogus charges. Many were former military who had no record and a couple were retired police officers. It was quickly obvious this was a clusterphuck on all sides but the damage done by LE and DA to innocent people is the relevant part. There are also several videos to watch of the incident if interested.

In the end after 2+ years all charges were dropped and the couple trials that took place ended in acquittal or hung jury.

There are lots of stories like that where good people got caught up in a mess.

Learn the law, run thru scenarios ahead of time and decide when how or even if you would respond. You have no immunity legally or civilly if you act and make a big mistake and hurt someone. It's best to be a live good witness.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

Hell of a post at 4:40am....

 

[txinvestigator]

Texas allows use of force and deadly force to protect an innocent third person where appropriate. See chapter 9 of the Texas Penal Code.

Texas law also provides civil immunity for a justified use of force or deadly force. Immunity does not prevent a lawsuit, but does provide that if the civil court determines you were justified under chapter 9 that you are not liable.

 

[tangoparson]

There was a post on here a few years ago that pointed out just how much things aren’t always as they seem. Someone with better search-fu than me should link it.

It had to do with a story that took place in a wal mart parking lot. A woman appeared to be chasing a man and screaming for him to stop, like maybe a purse snatching. A few seconds later, as a car moved by, it was revealed that the man wasn’t running from the woman. They were both chasing a child that was about to walk into the traffic lane.

Thinking on that scenario really sharpened my view on whether I would intervene quickly or just be a good witness.

The line between gathering enough facts to have the true picture and acting rashly is a hard judgement call that only you can make, at that moment you have to make it. Pre-thinking, like we are doing now, helps but ultimately, it is on you.

In my case, most situations can afford a little time to be sure I know what is really happening before acting


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[oldag]

First internet lawyers advice is worth what you pay for it. That said, and since I have a holiday inn express frequent stay account I'll give it a shot. Again, dont listen to me or everyone else who chimes in as it wont be worth squat legally.

Beside that I feel long posts are in this threads future.

Im Assuming you're talking about a deadly force incident.

No, theres no good samaritan law that applies to a use of force incident that I'm aware of. In many cases if someone is committing a felony and someone gets killed during the incident they are charged with murder regardless of weather they caused it. Example a get away driver gets charged with murder if his partner kills someone even if he was not involved in the actual murder. This said, in no way protects you if you respond and kill or hurt the wrong person for what ever reason. It would be the luck of the draw weather you faced criminal or civil jeopardy for your actions. Plus you have to live with it.

Should you respond?
Theres a dozen variables to take into account like...
Do you know what's going on, who is the bad guy in the situation?
Do you have loved ones yourself you need to protect first?
Can you intervene safely?
What will you look like to police or other armed citizens who know nothing about the actual incident?
Are you even capable of intervening physically or ability wise?
And a crapload more. Possibly even exposing yourself to legal jeopardy for no other reason except costco's are all no gun zones last I checked. Just cause you said Costco, but it goes for other places people carry concealed in as they refuse to abdicate their and loved ones responsiblity to defend themselves to a sign.

You have you and your loved ones as a primary responsibility. Unless you are 100 percent clear on whose the bad guy, like obvious active shooter, you're taking a huge chance on intervening as you wouldnt be the first guy shooting the wrong party. You also wouldnt be the first good samaritan shot by police or another person acting like you did and intervening with out all the critical facts.

Be a good witness after insuring your family's safety.

If you want to see an example of a clusterphuck kinda like you described research the Waco texas twin peaks shootout. Some biker gangs decided to act stupid at an otherwise normal meet n greet. There were many complicated parts and pieces to the incident such as the cops were close by having had word something was going to happen but there were lots of innocent people swept up in the mess.

There were non participants, i.e. not involved in the premeditated fight/assault, shot by police and the cops and corrupt/ignorant DA arrested everyone who road a motorcycle to the event as a gang member participating in a shootout. They also search every car anywhere near looking for guns and went after those folks too. Most arrested and charged were held on huge bonds, had their lives ruined and went bankrupt fighting the bogus charges. Many were former military who had no record and a couple were retired police officers. It was quickly obvious this was a clusterphuck on all sides but the damage done by LE and DA to innocent people is the relevant part. There are also several videos to watch of the incident if interested.

In the end after 2+ years all charges were dropped and the couple trials that took place ended in acquittal or hung jury.

There are lots of stories like that where good people got caught up in a mess.

Learn the law, run thru scenarios ahead of time and decide when how or even if you would respond. You have no immunity legally or civilly if you act and make a big mistake and hurt someone. It's best to be a live good witness.

The point you make early in your post is worth noting. Looking at your point from a different angle, this is one of the reasons I will not brandish.

Who know who else is observing the situation when I am engaging a thief, etc.? Could be a CHL, or just someone carrying. Could be a LEO, in or out of uniform. I may well be unaware of their presence. Will I be seen as the aggressor by someone who happens upon the situation and does not truly know what is going down? I could end up shot.

Yep, that is a risk even if a person doesn't draw until the last second, But the longer the gun is drawn, the greater the risk.

These situations are not as simple as some folks like to make out.

Re: Twin Peaks
People were still murdered, don't forget that. Innocent bystanders were put in mortal danger. This is a little more than "acting stupid." Yes the DA should have dismissed many more charges in the weeks after the event. But now some guilty folks are walking.

And anyone stupid enough to be affiliated - even loosely - with the Banditos...

 

[Big Green]

Hell of a post at 4:40am....

I work evenings/nights. It’s a horrible schedule. That’s about the time I go to bed most nights.

ETA: Looks like it was only 3:40. I got to bed early.

 

[Big Green]

There was a post on here a few years ago that pointed out just how much things aren’t always as they seem. Someone with better search-fu than me should link it.

It had to do with a story that took place in a wal mart parking lot. A woman appeared to be chasing a man and screaming for him to stop, like maybe a purse snatching. A few seconds later, as a car moved by, it was revealed that the man wasn’t running from the woman. They were both chasing a child that was about to walk into the traffic lane.

Thinking on that scenario really sharpened my view on whether I would intervene quickly or just be a good witness.

The line between gathering enough facts to have the true picture and acting rashly is a hard judgement call that only you can make, at that moment you have to make it. Pre-thinking, like we are doing now, helps but ultimately, it is on you.

In my case, most situations can afford a little time to be sure I know what is really happening before acting


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Absolutely, understanding the situation is critical, I’ve read about similar instances like you mentioned. I was thinking about a more clearly defined situation where the shooter is apparent and plainly the perpetrator committing the act.

 

[BillFairbanks]

Just read an article about a shooting at a Costco in Ca. and got to wondering about laws in Texas. If you interject yourself into the situation, say from across the store where you are not in immediate harm, how does that work? Prior to LEOs showing up, can you stop the situation? I know in the church shooting the other year someone did, but was he lucky in his response or was it reasonable?

Are you protected like a Good Samaritan law?

For the record I haven’t taken my LTC class where I assume this may be covered.

Are you familiar with the Zona Caliente Sports Bar shooting that was stopped by a LTC holder?

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/arl...ded-arlington-restaurant-shooting-reports-say


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[ZX9RCAM]

I work evenings/nights. It’s a horrible schedule. That’s about the time I go to bed most nights.

ETA: Looks like it was only 3:40. I got to bed early.

I was referring to candallen.
Hella long post, early in the morning...

 

[Mowingmaniac 24/7]

My take: LTVers aren't LEOers.

Take care of your family by getting out of such a situation pronto and don't go back in - keep going.

And yes, I appreciate those who would like to interject themselves in such situations to help save innocent lives - good luck with that.

I'm not going to be one of them - If you care to, by all means step up to the plate, but first understand you may be killed or have a massive law suit on your hands. Or, even end up in jail because you didn't fully know the complete story.

It's not your or my obligation to save the world.

 

[Big Green]

I was referring to candallen.
Hella long post, early in the morning...

I didn’t even look at his time, just knew I posted late. Didn’t figure anyone else was watching the sun come up. Carry on.

 

[easy rider]

My take: LTVers aren't LEOers.

Take care of your family by getting out of such a situation pronto and don't go back in - keep going.

And yes, I appreciate those who would like to interject themselves in such situations to help save innocent lives - good luck with that.

I'm not going to be one of them - If you care to, by all means step up to the plate, but first understand you may be killed or have a massive law suit on your hands. Or, even end up in jail because you didn't fully know the complete story.

It's not your or my obligation to save the world.

Along the same lines. I would take care of me and mine first. It would all depend on the situation. If I couldn't get out safely and killing started and I had a clear shot to stop the killing, I believe I would take it. Other than that, I wouldn't want to be the one that created a situation where others get hurt or killed.

 

[Mowingmaniac 24/7]

Immediate self defense is why I'm armed.

Another consideration when stepping up to the plate - Law Enforcement might take you out, never mind the bad guy/guys.

They've no quick way of knowing you're a good guy.......

 

[Younggun]

Meh, way to many imaginary situations for me to tell anyone here what I would or wouldn’t do.

It’s almost a certainty that by saying I might act someone will point out every way it will get me killed because they incision something different.

If I say I wouldn’t then someone will point out the most clear cut situation where action could be taken to save 100,000 children’s lives with no chance of me being arrested or endangered.


I will act if it is prudent by my own judgement as the best course of action if and when the situation ever arises where I find myself having to make the choice.


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[BillFairbanks]

Immediate self defense is why I'm armed.

Another consideration when stepping up to the plate - Law Enforcement might take you out, never mind the bad guy/guys.

They've no quick way of knowing you're a good guy.......

I believe something like that happened in Alabama.


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[txinvestigator]

To everyone: So you are in a restaurant eating with your parents and a guy drives his truck through the front window, gets out and starts shooting people. What would you do?
He hasn't targeted you yet.

 

[Younggun]

To everyone: So you are in a restaurant eating with your parents and a guy drives his truck through the front window, gets out and starts shooting people. What would you do?
He hasn't targeted you yet.

It depends.


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[ZX9RCAM]

I'd need depends....

 

[easy rider]

To everyone: So you are in a restaurant eating with your parents and a guy drives his truck through the front window, gets out and starts shooting people. What would you do?
He hasn't targeted you yet.

Of course, unless the situation arises it's not a question of what I would do, but more of what I think or hope I would do.

Like I said before, my first concern is that I get myself and parents to cover. I also wouldn't want to draw the guy's attention to me or the parents, so unless I have a clear shot, I would wait for one to present itself.

It's all speculation until a scenario presents itself, but I try to train to shoot quickly, but not too quick as to shoot off target.