duty to retreat

[MR Redneck]

Remember the thread about shooting people in the ass? Don't shoot them in the leg either. Shooting someone in the leg is still deadly force.

If someone is using unlawful deadly force against you of course you can defend yourself regardless of what time it is. In Texas we can also use deadly force to protect property, and this is where the night time restrictions come in. You can use deadly force to stop burglary, robbery, or arson any time of day even if your life is not in danger. But you can only use deadly force to stop theft or criminal mischief (basically vandalism) during the night.

I understand criminal mischief only allowing deadly force at night. I just dont see the difference between being able to use deadly force for burglary and robbery during the day, and only being able to use deadly force for theft at night.
Am I wrong to think burglary , robbery, and theft are all the same. I understand that if someone takes my possesions while im not there, its just theft. But if I am present at the time and someone steals form me, wouldnt that determine it to be robbery or burgerly?
Hell, you cant use deadly force for theft because you wont even be there. Now theft while im at the scene is robbery, or buglary.Robbery and burglary are the only two I could do something about.

 

[Bithabus]

Robbery, burglary, and theft are different crimes. Here are the official definitions:

Sec. 29.02. ROBBERY. (a) A person commits an offense if, in the course of committing theft as defined in Chapter 31 and with intent to obtain or maintain control of the property, he:
(1) intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly causes bodily injury to another; or
(2) intentionally or knowingly threatens or places another in fear of imminent bodily injury or death.

Sec. 30.02. BURGLARY. (a) A person commits an offense if, without the effective consent of the owner, the person:
(1) enters a habitation, or a building (or any portion of a building) not then open to the public, with intent to commit a felony, theft, or an assault; or
(2) remains concealed, with intent to commit a felony, theft, or an assault, in a building or habitation; or
(3) enters a building or habitation and commits or attempts to commit a felony, theft, or an assault.

Sec. 31.03. THEFT. (a) A person commits an offense if he unlawfully appropriates property with intent to deprive the owner of property.

If someone says "give me your wallet or else" and then takes your wallet, he would be committing robbery and theft. If someone sneaks into your house and steals your TV, he would be committing burglary and theft. If someone pickpockets you, or picks up your suitcase at the airport and runs away, he would just be committing theft.

 

[MR Redneck]

Sec. 31.03. THEFT. (a) A person commits an offense if he unlawfully appropriates property with intent to deprive the owner of property.
All this tells me is a Theif become a Robber after he touches something.

(1) enters a habitation, or a building (or any portion of a building) not then open to the public, with intent to commit a felony, theft, or an assault; or
This tells me that if they come into my building at anytime to commit theft, I can shoot their ass!
In all reality, wouldnt you agree that no matter what time of day it is, if you see someone stealing you stuff, it could be called burglary or robbery?

 

[Bithabus]

Sec. 31.03. THEFT. (a) A person commits an offense if he unlawfully appropriates property with intent to deprive the owner of property.
All this tells me is a Theif become a Robber after he touches something.

I don't understand what you mean. Someone can commit robbery without stealing anything. If he takes something he is also a thief.

(1) enters a habitation, or a building (or any portion of a building) not then open to the public, with intent to commit a felony, theft, or an assault; or
This tells me that if they come into my building at anytime to commit theft, I can shoot their ass!

Yep

In all reality, wouldnt you agree that no matter what time of day it is, if you see someone stealing you stuff, it could be called burglary or robbery?

Nope. In my above post I made up two examples where a perp could steal your stuff in your view and only commit theft.

If someone pickpockets you, or picks up your suitcase at the airport and runs away, he would just be committing theft.

 

[M. Sage]

OK, so if I were to shoot them during the day, say in the leg and they didnt die, I guess i'll still be within the law?
I have had the chance to shoot theifs and vandals during the nighttime several time but didnt find it necessary.
I really dont see the difference between nighttime and during the day. The way this law is written, the laws cater to the crooks during the day.
I guess you could claim some self defense a part of the reason for shooting criminals during the day.

No. Deadly force in TX is defined (going from memory, so it might not be word for word) as force that is likely to cause death or a serious permanent injury. Is shooting someone in the leg likely to cause a serious permanent injury? Hell yes, even if they live (and it's not nearly a sure bet), they're probably going to have to learn to walk again, and it's very doubtful they'll recover anywhere near 100%. They'll be crippled to some extent.

Sec. 31.03. THEFT. (a) A person commits an offense if he unlawfully appropriates property with intent to deprive the owner of property.
All this tells me is a Theif become a Robber after he touches something.

Backwards. It tells you that a robber or burglar becomes a thief as soon as they take something. It's like the difference between assault and battery. If someone breaks into a structure that they shouldn't be in (like your home, car, etc.) with criminal intent, then that's burglary, whether they take anything or not. It's the act of illegal entry with intent that defines burglary. Ditto with assault.

If someone takes a swing at you, that's assault even if they never connect. Battery is the law they break when they connect. It's their intent to hit you and their taking an action toward that goal that defines assault.

(1) enters a habitation, or a building (or any portion of a building) not then open to the public, with intent to commit a felony, theft, or an assault; or
This tells me that if they come into my building at anytime to commit theft, I can shoot their ass!
In all reality, wouldnt you agree that no matter what time of day it is, if you see someone stealing you stuff, it could be called burglary or robbery?

No, stealing stuff doesn't define burglary or robbery. I defined burglary above, but robbery is nothing more than someone telling you to give them your stuff or they'll use force to take it. That's about it, though it has to be credible IIRC. Even if you don't give up your stuff and fill the bastard with lead, you're still the victim of a robbery.

If someone comes into your building and it or the part of the building they're in isn't open to the public, then they might be guilty of burglary... if you can show that there is intent to commit a felony or some other specific crime. An empty bag, a ski mask, a weapon of some sort... those are all indicators. You have to have a reason to think that this person is a burglar.

 

[MR Redneck]

Well I learned some very important facts about Texas Law today. The fact that it sucks and makes no damn sence!

What yall are telling me is I can use deadly force to stop someone " In the middle of the day" from breaking into my property, attempting to rob me, or commit burglary. At this point, I can shoot their ass's even though they have not taken anything yet.

Now if they take something and I catch them they are considered a theif. During the day time, I cant shoot their ass's if I wait till they take something or if I give them what they demand, but prior to giving them anything I can shoot em!

I hope yall understand where im going with this.

 

[Bithabus]

What yall are telling me is I can use deadly force to stop someone " In the middle of the day" from breaking into my property, attempting to rob me, or commit burglary. At this point, I can shoot their ass's even though they have not taken anything yet.

Now if they take something and I catch them they are considered a theif. During the day time, I cant shoot their ass's if I wait till they take something or if I give them what they demand, but prior to giving them anything I can shoot em!

That's not how it works. If ALL they do is commit theft, during the day, you can't legally shoot them. If they are committing burglary or robbery in addition to the theft, or with no theft, you can shoot them any time.

Also remember if you are in your building and someone breaks in you can shoot them at any time in self defense.

 

[MR Redneck]

That's not how it works. If ALL they do is commit theft, during the day, you can't legally shoot them. If they are committing burglary or robbery in addition to the theft, or with no theft, you can shoot them any time.

Also remember if you are in your building and someone breaks in you can shoot them at any time in self defense.

That last part is all I need to know. The rest applies well to me defending my neighbors stuff. None of my property is public property. Not even my shop.

 

[M. Sage]

Well I learned some very important facts about Texas Law today. The fact that it sucks and makes no damn sence!

What yall are telling me is I can use deadly force to stop someone " In the middle of the day" from breaking into my property, attempting to rob me, or commit burglary. At this point, I can shoot their ass's even though they have not taken anything yet.

Now if they take something and I catch them they are considered a theif. During the day time, I cant shoot their ass's if I wait till they take something or if I give them what they demand, but prior to giving them anything I can shoot em!

I hope yall understand where im going with this.

This is all actually common law stuff. It's pretty much the same through every state. If someone is burgling your home, they're committing burglary the whole way through, from the time they break in until they escape or are shot. When they pick something up to steal, then they are also committing theft, but they're still in the commission of a burglary. A person can commit more than one crime at a time, you know. In the case I described above, they'd be committing two simultaneously, and while you can't shoot them to recover your stuff during the daytime, they're still in the middle of a burglary and fair game until they've stopped doing it by either surrendering, escaping, or being incapacitated.

 

[MR Redneck]

Am I the only one who thinks you should be able to defend you property buy what ever means necessary 24/7?
I can see a lot of reasons why some of this stuff should be changed.
I dont think you should shoot anyone just for tresspassing, but cut my fence to do so and BLAM!!
I like laws that dont restrict people from defending what is theirs. It doesnt matter what time of day it is, its still your stuff! Such as my shop. I started keeping the gate closed all the time, even during work hours, just to keep the local trash out. I got tired of meth heads bringing shit they stole around here trying to sell it to me. My place isnt open to the public and if my customers need to bring me something, I can open the gates.
Local trash is a burden to me so I try to make it stay out on the streets so it will be the counties problem and not mine. If they come in here, then I'll deal with the the way I see fit!

 

[M. Sage]

Your lucky the tweekers weren't walking off with your stuff. When I worked in San Francisco it happened all the time.

And no, you're not the only person who sees defending stuff as a moral necessity. I see my money and the stuff I buy with it as no different than my life. I'm trading pieces of my life for the money I trade for my stuff. Steal my stuff, steal my life.

 

[West Texas]

Just for the record...

When I made the comment about shooting the BG in the ass, I was just making a funny point about how bad it looks to a Grand Jury when the perp has two close together in the back of his head with a lot of powered burned hair around the entrance wounds...seems that went over a lot of peoples heads...you are trying to stop a threat and protect your life, not execute someone.

And you don't think the perp would have a hard time explaining to his new cell mate how he got a bullet wound in the ass while trying to rob a pizza place? Would probably get him a cute jailhouse nick name...