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  • majormadmax

    Úlfhéðnar
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    9   0   0
    Aug 27, 2009
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    Helotes!
    I had much rather look at them and say "I stopped him with a shot to the butt" than have THEM say "You executed him with a shot to the back of the head"!

    Sorry, I can't agree with that. You shoot someone in the butt, and they in turn shoot and kill several innocent victims and then let's see how a grand jury reacts! That is, if you're lucky enough that he doesn't turn around and shoot and possible kill you!

    It's called 'deadly force' for a reason, and if you employ it you had better do so with the understanding that you most likely will kill the person it is being employed against. You must also understand that when someone is using a firearm during a crime, they are also employing deadly force whether they shoot someone or not. It is what gives someone the justification to employ deadly force in their own defense.

    I am well aware of the variables involved in any situation, many years of being briefed on the Laws of Armed Conflict and Rules of Engagement has hammered that into my thick skull. Given the limited scenario information provided (armed robber in a pizza shop), if I had a clear shot of the robber without endangering others, I would take it. And it would be with the intent to kill, as his use of a firearm in the commission of a crime demonstrates his intent to use deadly force as well.

    And, on a somewhat related issue, this follows international rules of war. The reason the Hague Convention of 1899 does not allow military forces to use hollow point bullets is that they are more likely to cause pain and suffering over conventional rounds ("The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions").
    Target Sports
     

    jedwil

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    Jan 31, 2010
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    I agree with Max 100%
    Agreed. If I shoot anyone it is because I am in fear of my life or that of an innocent person. I am not really anxious to kill anyone but I would defend myself or others. Seems to me if you intentionally shoot some BG in the leg or arm you are indicating that they are not posing a threat so grievous that they need to be killed. Serious legal implications for the shooter.
     

    Sid

    Active Member
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    Sep 14, 2010
    207
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    Austin
    Lot of interesting posts.

    To the OP, as many have mentioned, in Texas you have no requirement to retreat. However, what are the chances that if you bolt for the door and escape, the BG becomes startled and shoots either the clerk or a bystander?

    Also, you can never read someone's mind, especially that of a sociopath, so can you really assume this BG is just hard up for money? Or is it possible he's done this before and has trained to full familiarization with his firearm? Tactical-Life.com BATTLE-HARDENED CRIMINALS

    In addition, you are not required to protect anyone other than yourself and loved ones.

    Its certainly a situation I never want to be in, but know what I'd do in such a case.

    ETA: To those saying "Shoot to kill," I highly recommend changing your daily language to describe defensive shooting, so that, when you're being questioned by a LEO, you say the correct words: "My life was in danger and I shot to make him stop. Please, go arrest him." Then, request your lawyer and answer no other questions NO MATTER WHAT until the lawyer is present.
     

    MR Redneck

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    Aug 20, 2010
    4,354
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    The great country of West Texas
    I read all the comments about this subject and found everyone pretty much has the same opinion.
    Honestly, I feel that its anyone's obligation to ensure the safety of themself and their dependents.
    Your family comes first.
    If this were to happen to me, I cant really say what I would do. I can say I would do something but really dont know till it happens. I've been in a lot of shit in my life and so far I haven't had to shoot anyone.
    Guns, knifes, bats, man I've dealt with it all. Like West Texas said, most of the time the criminal wouldnt know how to use the weapon anyhow. Im not betting on that , but I can actually say from my experiance's he's right. Let some Ahole pull a knife on me and see what they get! It's pretty hard to stab someone's vitals when there's a size 13 Redwing boot breaking your ribs!
    I have said it one and I'll say it again, DEFEND YOURSELF AND THOSE AROUND YOU!! IF THIS EVER HAPPENS TO YOU, WHY WORRY ABOUT THE LAW.
    ALL LAW MAKERS, ENFORCES, AND PROSECUTORS CAN BE FIRED AND REPLACED!!
    YOUR LIFE AND THE LIFE OF OTHERS CAN NOT!!
    Its sad that our legal system has become so screwed up that we should have this discussion. Our legal system is more of a burden to the honest Texans than it is to the criminals!!!!!!!!!!!
    Keep safe and take care, Shane.
     

    West Texas

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    Jun 13, 2010
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    Sorry, I can't agree with that. You shoot someone in the butt, and they in turn shoot and kill several innocent victims and then let's see how a grand jury reacts! That is, if you're lucky enough that he doesn't turn around and shoot and possible kill you!

    It's called 'deadly force' for a reason, and if you employ it you had better do so with the understanding that you most likely will kill the person it is being employed against. You must also understand that when someone is using a firearm during a crime, they are also employing deadly force whether they shoot someone or not. It is what gives someone the justification to employ deadly force in their own defense.

    I am well aware of the variables involved in any situation, many years of being briefed on the Laws of Armed Conflict and Rules of Engagement has hammered that into my thick skull. Given the limited scenario information provided (armed robber in a pizza shop), if I had a clear shot of the robber without endangering others, I would take it. And it would be with the intent to kill, as his use of a firearm in the commission of a crime demonstrates his intent to use deadly force as well.

    And, on a somewhat related issue, this follows international rules of war. The reason the Hague Convention of 1899 does not allow military forces to use hollow point bullets is that they are more likely to cause pain and suffering over conventional rounds ("The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions").

    I agree with Max 100%

    Agreed. If I shoot anyone it is because I am in fear of my life or that of an innocent person. I am not really anxious to kill anyone but I would defend myself or others. Seems to me if you intentionally shoot some BG in the leg or arm you are indicating that they are not posing a threat so grievous that they need to be killed. Serious legal implications for the shooter.

    The point in protecting yourself is to STOP the attack. If I can stop it with a shot to the butt, great...that isn't where I am going to be aiming normally, but what ever it takes to STOP THE ATTACK. A properly placed Head shot WILL stopp the attack, and have you answering a LOT more questions about your motive to KILL versus your motive to STOP THE ATTACK.

    The law does NOT give us the right to go out and kill, but the law DOES recognise that us STOPPING THE ATTACK might mean that we DO take a human life.
     

    TexasRedneck

    1911 Nut
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    9   0   0
    Jan 23, 2009
    14,569
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    New Braunfels, TX
    Sorry WT - buy you're wrong. The use of deadly force is narrowly justified by the legal system. If you intentionally shoot someone to "stop" them, making that shot less than potentially lethal WILL open you up for prosecution - and it will likely be successful. Period. Don't believe me, then ask any attorney - but PLEASE ask them BEFORE you get yourself in such a situation!!
    Deadly force is to be used only when there is no other option (paraphrasing the law here) - where your failure to act will result in death of another, or loss of property with no reasonable expectation of recovery. The law does NOT allow for any intentional wounding - which intentionally shooting someone in the butt/hand/wherever is - and as such, is indefensible under the law. If you EVER use a gun, and they ask why he's shot and still alive, you BEST be ready to say that you WERE INTENDING TO KILL - under the law, that's the ONLY "shooting to stop" scenario allowed. Otherwise, the prosecution will be under the basis that you were NOT in fear of your life, etc. It may make on sense to you, but as I said - talk to an attorney about it before you get yourself in trouble.
    There's one other arguement I'll present you with - if the day ever comes that you have to use Deadly Force against a BG, trust me when I say instinct/training WILL take over. That is why most tactical targets emphasize Center Mass - because THAT is where you want to put EVERY round. If you routinely practice less-than-lethal shot placement, you just might make that shot under stress at a time when you needed to put him down HARD.
     

    MR Redneck

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    Aug 20, 2010
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    The great country of West Texas
    Is it just me or does that sound like some stupid crap.
    Not that im sayin TR is wrong, im just saying the law is crap!
    Thats one more example of Law makers protecting the criminal.
    I dont get shot for stealing, robing, or harming anyone because I choose NOT to bother anybody that hasnt done anything wrong!
    My opinion is criminals shouldnt have a leg to stand on in court! A criminal make the decission to commit the act! The law should not be in favor of the criminal if they get their ass shot! No person should be charged with anything for shooting some dirtbag that violated them or their property!

    Law Makers are the problem, not the citizens!
     

    ROGER4314

    Been Called "Flash" Since I Was A Kid!
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    1   0   0
    Jul 11, 2009
    10,444
    66
    East Houston
    I use the wet pants standard of using deadly force. If I'm wetting my pants in fear, I'll draw and fire. Short of wet pants, the piece is going to stay out of sight.

    As related earlier................ So you are telling me that you are behind someone who is standing over his next victim ala the Luby’s shooting in Killeen and you wouldn’t pump several rounds into him because he has his back to you? Forget that, as long as I have a clear and safe shot, I am going to fill with enough lead that the last thing that goes through his mind will be a .45ACP round!

    Result? Wet pants...................SHOOT!

    Flash
     

    mtaylor

    Member
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    0   0   0
    Sep 1, 2010
    51
    1
    Montgomery, Texas
    ETA: To those saying "Shoot to kill," I highly recommend changing your daily language to describe defensive shooting, so that, when you're being questioned by a LEO, you say the correct words: "My life was in danger and I shot to make him stop. Please, go arrest him." Then, request your lawyer and answer no other questions NO MATTER WHAT until the lawyer is present.

    I wouldn't even go that far. I would limit it to "I will cooperate fully with your investigation as soon as my attorney arrives."

    Remember, anything said to LEO is a statement to the prosecution.
     

    West Texas

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    0   0   0
    Jun 13, 2010
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    Sorry WT - buy you're wrong. The use of deadly force is narrowly justified by the legal system. If you intentionally shoot someone to "stop" them, making that shot less than potentially lethal WILL open you up for prosecution - and it will likely be successful. Period. Don't believe me, then ask any attorney - but PLEASE ask them BEFORE you get yourself in such a situation!!
    Deadly force is to be used only when there is no other option (paraphrasing the law here) - where your failure to act will result in death of another, or loss of property with no reasonable expectation of recovery. The law does NOT allow for any intentional wounding - which intentionally shooting someone in the butt/hand/wherever is - and as such, is indefensible under the law. If you EVER use a gun, and they ask why he's shot and still alive, you BEST be ready to say that you WERE INTENDING TO KILL - under the law, that's the ONLY "shooting to stop" scenario allowed. Otherwise, the prosecution will be under the basis that you were NOT in fear of your life, etc. It may make on sense to you, but as I said - talk to an attorney about it before you get yourself in trouble.
    There's one other arguement I'll present you with - if the day ever comes that you have to use Deadly Force against a BG, trust me when I say instinct/training WILL take over. That is why most tactical targets emphasize Center Mass - because THAT is where you want to put EVERY round. If you routinely practice less-than-lethal shot placement, you just might make that shot under stress at a time when you needed to put him down HARD.

    My intent is NOT to "shoot to wound"...that's not how I train and not how I shoot...but I also don't feel the need to continue to shoot once the threat to my life has been neutralized....if that means he took a stray one in the ass and is laying there crying like a baby, fine...or he took one center mass and is bleeding out from the trama of a 230gr .45, it is what it is. Once the weapon is in my hand, it is going to go off VERY soon there after...like as soon as the target is aquired...

    it's appropriate force, not deadly force, that will keep you from getting true billed in front of a grand jury...because you WILL be speaking to them rather the perp is dead or not.
     

    TexasRedneck

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    Jan 23, 2009
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    New Braunfels, TX
    True on the "remove the threat". If you shoot the BG, he drops the gun, and just lays there, then shooting him again is wrong in the eyes of the courts (as it should be). HOWEVER - if he makes a move to retrieve his weapon OR moves as if he's attempting to get at another weapon on her person, etc. - then you can take such action as is necessary to nullify his potential threat. Just remember one thing - 99% of us will NEVER be in this situation - but if you are, you need to do what you need to do - and once the law arrives, be as polite as possible, but shut up until you have legal counsel.
     

    West Texas

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    Jun 13, 2010
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    True on the "remove the threat". If you shoot the BG, he drops the gun, and just lays there, then shooting him again is wrong in the eyes of the courts (as it should be). HOWEVER - if he makes a move to retrieve his weapon OR moves as if he's attempting to get at another weapon on her person, etc. - then you can take such action as is necessary to nullify his potential threat. Just remember one thing - 99% of us will NEVER be in this situation - but if you are, you need to do what you need to do - and once the law arrives, be as polite as possible, but shut up until you have legal counsel.

    "It is better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6"...do what you need to do, but don't set the body on fire, it's bad form...
     

    TexasRedneck

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    Jan 23, 2009
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    do what you need to do, but don't set the body on fire, it's bad form...

    hmmm.....Officer, I was so badly shaken that I had to have a cigarette. What's that? Oh - well, yeah, the gas can kinda tipped over on him....excuse me? Oh - well, see, I always like to be prepared, so I went down to the gas station and bought some gas in case my car was low. When I got back, I went to see if he was still dead, and it tipped over....
     

    matefrio

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    Jan 19, 2010
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    Missouri, Texas Consulate HQ
    hmmm.....Officer, I was so badly shaken that I had to have a cigarette. What's that? Oh - well, yeah, the gas can kinda tipped over on him....excuse me? Oh - well, see, I always like to be prepared, so I went down to the gas station and bought some gas in case my car was low. When I got back, I went to see if he was still dead, and it tipped over....
    I did piss on him to try and put it out..........
     

    Sid

    Active Member
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    Sep 14, 2010
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    Austin
    I wouldn't even go that far. I would limit it to "I will cooperate fully with your investigation as soon as my attorney arrives."

    Remember, anything said to LEO is a statement to the prosecution.

    I don't expect much liability in Texas if it was a clean shoot, but its always better to get YOUR short story in first: http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/images/stories/journal/Network_2010-9.pdf

    Stating your life was in danger and you shot to make him stop isn't much help to prosecutors. Especially when you add in, "Please go arrest him."

    Long read, but I learned a lot from it.
     

    Sid

    Active Member
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    1   0   0
    Sep 14, 2010
    207
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    I use the wet pants standard of using deadly force. If I'm wetting my pants in fear, I'll draw and fire. Short of wet pants, the piece is going to stay out of sight.

    Result? Wet pants...................SHOOT!

    Flash

    LOL! I like this standard!
     

    cuate

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    Jan 27, 2009
    1,842
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    Comanche Co., Texas
    Very likely we CHL gunnies should read the Texas Statutes concerning the use of deadly force, and read it again occasionally so that we understand and know what to do and what not to do and when and where under what conditions....This is not to say that if you are in the right, some overzealous prosecuter won't go for your butt. They grade themselves upon % of convictions. And it is likely or even possible that prosecuter is a gun hater to boot ! One method of narrowing the chances of having to draw a weapon and protect your life or other lives is not to go into businesses, or areas where human trash of any variety habituates...If you don't rub shoulders with "them", chances are good you won't have to battle them...

    You are already a real good man or the State wouldn't have issued your CHL....Don't go looking for a gunfight, but don't run from one either...
     
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