Firearms on military bases

[just jk]

how much do you want to bet this language includes the land surrounding the building?

The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.

as a federal employee - i know that it is illegal for me to carry a gun in my car on the grounds (i.e., parking lot) of the fed building where i work - as long as that parking lot is on the grounds of that building

this is the part of the statute that you says allows guns on a federal facility:

(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to— (1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;
(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or
(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

my thoughts are that your interpretation is "lacking"

as for the military commander - they have the right to set rules for the installation - and while a general article of the UCMJ would be used (Failure to Follow Order or Regulation) to cover that - I can't think off the top of my head how a civilian would be charged

however, i can tell you this - i was the Special Agent in Charge of the Fort Sam CID office from 99 to 04 - and I'm confident based on experience that if you take a firearm on to an installation outside the posted rules, - you'll be cited and asked to appear in the magistrate court. your weapon will be confiscated (not theft) and released to you as you exit the installation.

again - feel free to conduct your own legal analysis and form your own opinion

 

[Bithabus]

as a federal employee - i know that it is illegal for me to carry a gun in my car on the grounds (i.e., parking lot) of the fed building where i work - as long as that parking lot is on the grounds of that building

I would disagree. A parking lot is not part of a building, unless you are talking about a parking garage. If the courts have such a wild interpretation of a clearly worded statute please cite a case.

however, i can tell you this - i was the Special Agent in Charge of the Fort Sam CID office from 99 to 04 - and I'm confident based on experience that if you take a firearm on to an installation outside the posted rules, - you'll be cited and asked to appear in the magistrate court. your weapon will be confiscated (not theft) and released to you as you exit the installation.

You say you don't know what a civilian could be charged with, then you say "you'll be cited and asked to appear at the magistrate court". These statements seem to be at odds. What would be the charge on the citation?

 

[just jk]

I would disagree. A parking lot is not part of a building, unless you are talking about a parking garage. If the courts have such a wild interpretation of a clearly worded statute please cite a case.


You say you don't know what a civilian could be charged with, then you say "you'll be cited and asked to appear at the magistrate court". These statements seem to be at odds. What would be the charge on the citation?

i retired in 2004, its been a few days since i broke out the US Code - you'll have to forgive me....i'm simply saying i cant remember the specific citation - but i'm telling you based on experience.....blah blah blah

as for the parking lot issue - you are simply wrong. you can disagree all you wish, but if the fed govt owns the building AND the parking lot adjacent - they are one in the same

i believe this likely falls under the "curtilage" rule but perhaps not. i DO KNOW that the FAA didnt just slap up a "no guns" sign on that gate surrounding the parking lot without having done some legal research, and i'm also confident that the HR folks didnt include the offense in its table of penalties without the same legal due diligence

 

[just jk]

here:

(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.

the gate is the public entrance

 

[just jk]

i found this definition in a government regulation

Federal Facility - all buildings, structures, and parking areas, which are located on a single site
or on contiguous or adjacent sites and which are owned, leased or operated by the same Federal
Agency.

 

[Bithabus]

i found this definition in a government regulation

"Federal facility" is defined in USC 18, §930.

(g) As used in this section: (1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.

For the purposes of 930, the above is what a federal facility means. There is no mention of "grounds" or "curtilage".

 

[Bithabus]

here:



the gate is the public entrance

The gate is the entrance to Fed property, not the facility (as "facility" is defined in 930). When you go to the Post Office (for example) there is no notice that transporting weapons into the parking area is unlawful, because the parking area is not part of the facility.

Could some trespassing statute apply?

 

[just jk]

dude, you go with whatever pleases you

it seems to be what you want

 

[Bithabus]

dude, you go with whatever pleases you

it seems to be what you want

I appreciate that you are willing to share your experience, but without citing a relevant statute or some case law it doesn't really help answer my question.

At this point I have to conclude that transporting firearms into Federal installations (including military bases), as long as you don't enter a building or part of a building, is not illegal. Even then, with the "other lawful purposes" exception, it may be legal to carry inside the buildings. Is CHL carry for self defense not a lawful purpose?

 

[just jk]

well like i said - suit yourself - im only basing my opinion on a 15 year career of law enforcement on military installations - but you probably know better

i'm sorry i cant find it for you in black and white

 

[TangoUniform]

well like i said - suit yourself - im only basing my opinion on a 15 year career of law enforcement on military installations - but you probably know better

i'm sorry i cant find it for you in black and white

Here it is JK:

[Code of Federal Regulations]

[Title 32, Volume 3]

[Revised as of July 1, 2006]

From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access

[CITE: 32CFR552.18]

[Page 267-271]

TITLE 32--NATIONAL DEFENSE

CHAPTER V--DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY

PART 552_REGULATIONS AFFECTING MILITARY RESERVATIONS--Table of Contents

Subpart B_Post Commander

Sec. 552.18 Administration.


(e) Firearms. The installation commander will publish regulations on
the registration of privately owned firearms. See AR 608-4, Control and
Registration of War Trophies and War Trophy Firearms. A copy of the
above document may be obtained by writing to Headquarters, Department of
the Army (DAAG-PAP-W), Washington, DC 20314.

 

[just jk]

i'm not sure thats punitive, but it clearly gives the commander the authority to establish rules

 

[Bithabus]

Here it is JK:

[Code of Federal Regulations]

[Title 32, Volume 3]

[Revised as of July 1, 2006]

From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access

[CITE: 32CFR552.18]

[Page 267-271]

TITLE 32--NATIONAL DEFENSE

CHAPTER V--DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY

PART 552_REGULATIONS AFFECTING MILITARY RESERVATIONS--Table of Contents

Subpart B_Post Commander

Sec. 552.18 Administration.


(e) Firearms. The installation commander will publish regulations on
the registration of privately owned firearms. See AR 608-4, Control and
Registration of War Trophies and War Trophy Firearms. A copy of the
above document may be obtained by writing to Headquarters, Department of
the Army (DAAG-PAP-W), Washington, DC 20314.

 

[TangoUniform]

i'm not sure thats punitive, but it clearly gives the commander the authority to establish rules

AR 190-29 outlines the procedures if a civilian is issued a ticket (I believe it is called a DD Form 1805) and referred to a U.S. magistrate judge. I don't know what the possible penalties are. All these laws and regulations are so intertwined.

So basically if ya a civilian and get caught violating a post commander's rules or regulation as you stated ya get to see the Judge. If their nice they'll just warn you.


https://aepubs.army.mil/pdfpubs/R190_29.PDF

 

[Bithabus]

AR 190-29 outlines the procedures if a civilian is issued a ticket (I believe it is called a DD Form 1805) and referred to a U.S. magistrate judge. I don't know what the possible penalties are. All these laws and regulations are so intertwined.

So basically if ya a civilian and get caught violating a post commander's rules or regulation as you stated ya get to see the Judge. If their nice they'll just warn you.


https://aepubs.army.mil/pdfpubs/R190_29.PDF

Can't issue a DD 1805 if a crime has not occurred, according to that document. If a civilian disobeys the regulations issued by a base commander, what crime would be committed?

 

[TangoUniform]

Review Table 4-1 in the referenced AR for some "examples" of misdemeanors which is also covered by my reading with an DD 1805 referral.

Note I said examples.

You might also like to read section 3-3 which defines violations to be cited on a DD 1805.

They pretty well covered all angles and it will not likely change in our life time.

 

[Texastransplant]

Wife is employed on base. If you are going to the trap range, hunting and you register yourself and your firearm at the vistors center. Then allowed to bring the firearm on base. I picked up the forms to fill out at the Sportsmans club on Hood. I have done it yet but may later. A while back I met my wife at base and left her car on base and went shopping, and stopped at a gun show. Purchased a firearm and then were like, opps what do we do now. I refused to take a chance and in the end we drove 20 miles to a friends home left the gun in their truck in the drive and went and got the other vehicle. I didn't want to register a firearm on base that I never intened to take on base.

 

[majormadmax]

as for the parking lot issue - you are simply wrong. you can disagree all you wish, but if the fed govt owns the building AND the parking lot adjacent - they are one in the same

Sorry, but that's simply incorrect; otherwise, it would be illegal to take a weapon on Camp Bullis, Ft Hood, etc. The Code is clear, it is talking about buildings and parts of buildings; that does not include parking lots.

The hunting lodge at Bullis has a sign on the door that prohibits weapons being brought in, per USC 18, §930; it is the correct application of the law and you can believe it extends to parking lots all you want, but it simply ain't the truth!

I still work on a military installation, and shoot at one on a regular basis. I have done my research and know what is and is not allowed. I am also intimately familiar with what actions can be taken against those not subject to the UCMJ. I would like to see one case where someone was brought before a magistrate court for having a personally-owned firearm on base, but I doubt you'll find one.

And I am basing my comments as someone who was a commander and who had UMCJ authority. I also held several positions on commander's staff throughout my career that involved dealing with such matters on a daily basis. This ain't my first rodeo...

 

[majormadmax]

AR 190-29 outlines the procedures if a civilian is issued a ticket (I believe it is called a DD Form 1805) and referred to a U.S. magistrate judge. I don't know what the possible penalties are. All these laws and regulations are so intertwined.

So basically if ya a civilian and get caught violating a post commander's rules or regulation as you stated ya get to see the Judge. If their nice they'll just warn you.

https://aepubs.army.mil/pdfpubs/R190_29.PDF

Great, but Army regs don't apply to me any more than Air Force ones do anymore...the next thing you'll be telling me is that I have to get an Army haircut and shave if I am on an Army installation!

And again, if you refer to the UMCJ guide I posted a link to earlier, about the most a base commander can do is revoke an individual's privileges.

Lastly, AR 190-29 Table 4.1 talks about transporting loaded firearms in a vehicle, not just firearms in general. There is a difference, and actually at Camp Bullis there is a sign at the gate stating that. Also, most of those violations listed are also violations of Federal law, so it isn't unreasonable for them to be prosecuted in magistrate court.

 

[just jk]

Sorry, but that's simply incorrect; otherwise, it would be illegal to take a weapon on Camp Bullis, Ft Hood, etc. The Code is clear, it is talking about buildings and parts of buildings; that does not include parking lots.

The hunting lodge at Bullis has a sign on the door that prohibits weapons being brought in, per USC 18, §930; it is the correct application of the law and you can believe it extends to parking lots all you want, but it simply ain't the truth!

I still work on a military installation, and shoot at one on a regular basis. I have done my research and know what is and is not allowed. I am also intimately familiar with what actions can be taken against those not subject to the UCMJ. I would like to see one case where someone was brought before a magistrate court for having a personally-owned firearm on base, but I doubt you'll find one.

And I am basing my comments as someone who was a commander and who had UMCJ authority. I also held several positions on commander's staff throughout my career that involved dealing with such matters on a daily basis. This ain't my first rodeo...

commanders dont have punitive authority over civilians - there is a Special Assistant to the US Attorney that does

we'll just agree to disagree - i'm a retired CID CW3 and worked with civilian offenses on a regular basis.....its not my first rodeo either

have a great day and thanks for your service!