Lynx Defense

I do not have an FFL. I want to take orders, accept money, have guns received.

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  • jordanmills

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    But I want to not go to prison and not rely on not getting caught.

    Background:

    This is all hypothetical. I don't actually have or do any of this... yet. Say I have a web site. It lists firearms and prices. You go to the site, pick what you want, check out, and in a few days that gun shows up at the FFL of your choice.

    Scenario 1:

    I list guns for sale. I buy guns (in advance and keep them around if they're popular). I take orders. When I get an order, I package it and send it to the receiving FFL. From what I understand, that would make me a dealer. If I didn't have an FFL, I would be looking at confiscation of all my firearms, a large fine, and/or prison time, right?

    Scenario 2:

    I list guns for sale. I receive an order and payment. I take that order and payment and present it to a gun store with an FFL. They take the gun out of their inventory or order it, package it, and ship it to the receiving FFL. I'm thinking that, at worst, makes me a payment processor. But since I never own it I can't be the one selling it so I would not be a dealer as defined in 18 USC S 921 (a)(11)(A) ("(11) The term “dealer” means (A) any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail,").

    How likely am I to get in serious trouble for trying scenario 2?
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    Sapper740

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    I have two comments: a) Hire a lawyer in the field of Firearms' laws and get his expert opinion, then b) Don't do it.
     

    Dawico

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    I would avoid it completely but.......

    A store I know of does something similiar though. The store is a LEO only store. The owner doesn't sell guns to civilians. Another woman lists and "sells" Leo trade-in Glocks to civilians but the store does the paperwork. She lists them, runs the ads, lines up orders, and gives you directions to the store. When you get there you only deal with him.

    This sounds similiar to your scenario 2.

    I haven't seen her ads in years though and it seemed to be a short term setup. I have no idea what ended it honestly. Maybe it was a legal issue about the sales or the store or maybe it was personal. They may still be doing it for all I know. I only dealt with them once but haven't seen any ads in years.
     

    tango5seven

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    Scenario b is called drop shipping and is how many many websites work. I have owned several sites like that. The "seller" never has to touch the product. There is an industry set up to do it. Some will even put your logo on the packing slips etc

    When it comes to firearms though, I suspect it is coming verrrry close to a straw purchase. At least that is what I would say if I were the (3 letter gvt agency) and didn't like the idea.

    I aint no lawyer and haven't slept in a holiday inn in years so YMMV.


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    jordanmills

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    Scenario b is called drop shipping and is how many many websites work. I have owned several sites like that. The "seller" never has to touch the product. There is an industry set up to do it. Some will even put your logo on the packing slips etc

    When it comes to firearms though, I suspect it is coming verrrry close to a straw purchase. At least that is what I would say if I were the (3 letter gvt agency) and didn't like the idea.

    I aint no lawyer and haven't slept in a holiday inn in years so YMMV.


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    There's no way it could be a straw purchase. A straw purchase is procuring a firearm for someone who can't legally do it themselves. Since the buyer is completing the 4473 themselves, there's absolutely no chance it could be a straw purchase. My only concern is that I could be considered a dealer, but I'm almost convinced of that... just wanted to crowd-source it a little.
     

    tango5seven

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    Just free associating here ...

    I hear your point on the 4473. But, someone is giving you money to buy a firearm and you are giving the money to an FFL for a gun for someone else.

    Grey grey area. I agree with getting a lawyer who knows his stuff and maybe getting an atf opinion in writing.

    In the current regulatory climate, I'm not even sure I'd trust the atf opinion would be trustworthy.


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    Flewda

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    Personally, without having an FFL selling, especially via web is going to be murky water at best. I know a guy who sold mosins and 12 gauges via his business but the transactions were considered private. He did this while waiting for his FFL to go through but he did not have an FFL at that time. I don't know if he only did these transactions to people he knew or not. I think he was pretty much working with people he knew or referrals, as I am quite certain he didn't have a website and he didn't have a brick and mortar store, and it was (I believe) always a face to face transaction. So while I am sure there are ways to get it done legally that would be covering all your bases, my recommendation would be to steer clear unless you get an FFL.

    Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the ATF took particular interest in you if you bought a ton of firearms to keep them handy for your online sales without having an FFL.
     

    jordanmills

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    Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the ATF took particular interest in you if you bought a ton of firearms to keep them handy for your online sales without having an FFL.

    That's scenario 1, what I figured would come to most people's minds. I'm talking about scenario 2. I work with a friend at my local gun store and basically use their inventory. Guns that they buy from their wholesalers would be shipped to another FFL. I would never see, touch, be near, or have ownership or possession of the firearms even on paper.
     

    Younggun

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    Sounds like you would be a salesmen. A free lance employees of the gun store in a way. You give them business and get a commission.


    Agree this is a hundred miles away from anything near a straw purchase, not even close.

    But yeah, sounds like in simple terms you are getting a commission for driving sales to the store. Or a finders fee from the buyers perspective.
     

    A.Texas.Yankee

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    If you're employed by the licensee doing the transfer / sale (think of it like the guy behind the counter at your LGS), you're good. If not, then you in troubled water because you could be construed as dealing firearms without a license.

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    picasso

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    It would be hard for you to make money unless you are splitting the profit with the store. The guns are already marked up and if you know gun sales there isn't a ton of profit built into them. So, unless you can buy wholesale anything you can sell on your site is already marked up by the store that you are taking the sell to. How are they going to make the margin they need to stay in business and pay you at the same time?
     

    jordanmills

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    It would be hard for you to make money unless you are splitting the profit with the store. The guns are already marked up and if you know gun sales there isn't a ton of profit built into them. So, unless you can buy wholesale anything you can sell on your site is already marked up by the store that you are taking the sell to. How are they going to make the margin they need to stay in business and pay you at the same time?

    The idea is more to build a business model. And there is a market interested in promoting the model even with extra expense.
     

    A.Texas.Yankee

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    Are you talking about me? My employer doesn't own a gun store. Maybe you have me confused with someone else?

    I don't know what he is talking about, but if you are, let's say advertising on the FFL dealer's behalf, that you are ok. But you cannot receive or transfer the actual property in any way because that is what's regulated. Think of it this way on the forum here. There is a classifieds section, yes? That is technically assisting the the sale of the firearm, but the website in no way actually deals with the transfer.



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    jordanmills

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    I don't know what he is talking about, but if you are, let's say advertising on the FFL dealer's behalf, that you are ok. But you cannot receive or transfer the actual property in any way because that is what's regulated. Think of it this way on the forum here. There is a classifieds section, yes? That is technically assisting the the sale of the firearm, but the website in no way actually deals with the transfer.



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    I would never receive or touch the firearm or have ownership assigned to me directly or indirectly. Not possession, not even proximity. Partly because I want it very clear to any observer that I'm facilitating, not dealing.
     

    A.Texas.Yankee

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    Then you should be OK. Because you are strictly the advertiser for the firearm, not the seller. And as long as you are not the one actually doing the transaction, you are not in need of an FFL. AGAIN, think of it like any gun classifieds site. They are technically just an avenue for advertising. Which sounds like it's what you are attempting to do.

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