seeker_two
My posts don't count....
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I have mixed feelings on this....
- Thread starter retired_tim
- Start date
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Without a warrant, citizens aren't obligated to answer the door for law enforcement or let them in or exit the house to speak with them.
They can knock, but again without a warrant, you can tell them to get off your property or simply ignore them...
They can knock, but again without a warrant, you can tell them to get off your property or simply ignore them...
Lot of misinformation has been going around about this shoot.
The deputy went to the correct address.
The deputy announced himself multiple times, including only seconds before the door opened.
Everyone saying "but he wasn't standing to be seen from the peep hole" - tell me, if YOU were responding to a call about violence, are you standing in the kill zone in front of the damn door, or off to the side of the door like every cop in the US has been trained to do for decades?
When the door opens, one of the first things seen is the male (the potential suspect in the alleged domestic violence call) standing witha gun in his hand. As the responding cop, your gun is holstered up. His is in his hand. Action beats reaction. Precedent has been set that police do NOT need to have a weapon pointed at them or employed against them to use deadly force. Anyone saying "but it wasn't pointed AT him" is a fucking retard - are you going to wait for someone to shoot you or try to shoot you before you drop them? Military ROE and civilian law enforcement ROE is drastically different, because of the different roles and different missions and different threats.
ROE in Iraq and Afghanistan does not apply to sheriff deputies in Florida, Texas, California or New York, and the ROE in the military changes and there were instances where the ROE over there was "any fighting age person with a weapon in hand" gets shot. I'd also bet that any soldier, airmen, Marine, or sailor going in to an active combat zone would prefer NOT to wait until they're taking incoming fire to drop the bad guys.
Contrary to popular belief police don't sign up to die. Is it a risk of the job? Yes. But so is getting splattered by a car on the side of the highway for highway workers, falling off of a building for construction workers, or crashing for a pilot - that doesn't mean they have to take unnecessary risks or wait until they're already being hurt or killed to take action to prevent being hurt or killed.
"MuH 2a RiGhTs" - yes, your 2A rights still exist in your home. No one has said they don't - but rights come with responsiblities. The responsibility not to be a complete fucking retard with your gun is there if for nothing else, to prevent you from dying. Instead of just swinging the door open with the gun visible in hand, he could've challenged through the door - if the cops can articulate exigent circumstances or have a warrant, they're coming in regardless if you open it or not. If you don't believe that "SHERIFF'S OFFICE" being shouted by someone pounding your door is legit - take that phone and call 911 before you open it. Again - if the cops have reason, they're coming in anyway but in this case, they wouldn't have articulable evidence for an exigent entry so they're not booting the door immediately, and the time it took for the 2nd officer to arrive is plenty of time for a 911 dispatcher to say "Oh, you're at 123 Cherry street apartment 1401? Yeah, we have a 911 call at your location, that's a sheriffs deputy outside" - at which point our airmen could've put his gun on his counter and answered the door, or spoken to them through the closed door.
I've answered the door with a gun in hand when I couldn't see who it was - and like in this instance it was broad daylight - but unlike this dude, I had my body bladed and the gun was invisible to anyone standing on the other side of the door, and I only opened the door far enough to see who it was. I also was living in an apartment and it could've been a neighbor, a paper boy, the mail man, or as it turned out to be, some random dude my ex sent to "talk" to me.
You could say bad tactics on the officers part - but the only potential bad tactic I saw in that video was knocking before annoucing himself as a deputy the first time, and maybe not waiting for backup before attempting contact. I don't think the outcome would've been different though, if the airman had answered the door the same way with two or three deputies there, versus our solo deputy other than maybe having two or three deputies shooting him, instead of just one. Ultimately the airman's poor decision making played a role in his death.
The deputy had to go off of the initial information given until an investigation provided further details.
The fact that the piece of shit Ben Crump is out front on this thing also does no favors, Crump is a damned blood thirsty money hungry turd who loves to lie about situations to whip up public furvor. He's lightning fast to vilify police trying to get a big payout. I doubt he gives a damn about any of the "victims" he represents, only how many more zeros he can add to his wallet.
This wasn't a race thing - this was just a shitty situation all around.
The deputy went to the correct address.
The deputy announced himself multiple times, including only seconds before the door opened.
Everyone saying "but he wasn't standing to be seen from the peep hole" - tell me, if YOU were responding to a call about violence, are you standing in the kill zone in front of the damn door, or off to the side of the door like every cop in the US has been trained to do for decades?
When the door opens, one of the first things seen is the male (the potential suspect in the alleged domestic violence call) standing witha gun in his hand. As the responding cop, your gun is holstered up. His is in his hand. Action beats reaction. Precedent has been set that police do NOT need to have a weapon pointed at them or employed against them to use deadly force. Anyone saying "but it wasn't pointed AT him" is a fucking retard - are you going to wait for someone to shoot you or try to shoot you before you drop them? Military ROE and civilian law enforcement ROE is drastically different, because of the different roles and different missions and different threats.
ROE in Iraq and Afghanistan does not apply to sheriff deputies in Florida, Texas, California or New York, and the ROE in the military changes and there were instances where the ROE over there was "any fighting age person with a weapon in hand" gets shot. I'd also bet that any soldier, airmen, Marine, or sailor going in to an active combat zone would prefer NOT to wait until they're taking incoming fire to drop the bad guys.
Contrary to popular belief police don't sign up to die. Is it a risk of the job? Yes. But so is getting splattered by a car on the side of the highway for highway workers, falling off of a building for construction workers, or crashing for a pilot - that doesn't mean they have to take unnecessary risks or wait until they're already being hurt or killed to take action to prevent being hurt or killed.
"MuH 2a RiGhTs" - yes, your 2A rights still exist in your home. No one has said they don't - but rights come with responsiblities. The responsibility not to be a complete fucking retard with your gun is there if for nothing else, to prevent you from dying. Instead of just swinging the door open with the gun visible in hand, he could've challenged through the door - if the cops can articulate exigent circumstances or have a warrant, they're coming in regardless if you open it or not. If you don't believe that "SHERIFF'S OFFICE" being shouted by someone pounding your door is legit - take that phone and call 911 before you open it. Again - if the cops have reason, they're coming in anyway but in this case, they wouldn't have articulable evidence for an exigent entry so they're not booting the door immediately, and the time it took for the 2nd officer to arrive is plenty of time for a 911 dispatcher to say "Oh, you're at 123 Cherry street apartment 1401? Yeah, we have a 911 call at your location, that's a sheriffs deputy outside" - at which point our airmen could've put his gun on his counter and answered the door, or spoken to them through the closed door.
I've answered the door with a gun in hand when I couldn't see who it was - and like in this instance it was broad daylight - but unlike this dude, I had my body bladed and the gun was invisible to anyone standing on the other side of the door, and I only opened the door far enough to see who it was. I also was living in an apartment and it could've been a neighbor, a paper boy, the mail man, or as it turned out to be, some random dude my ex sent to "talk" to me.
You could say bad tactics on the officers part - but the only potential bad tactic I saw in that video was knocking before annoucing himself as a deputy the first time, and maybe not waiting for backup before attempting contact. I don't think the outcome would've been different though, if the airman had answered the door the same way with two or three deputies there, versus our solo deputy other than maybe having two or three deputies shooting him, instead of just one. Ultimately the airman's poor decision making played a role in his death.
The deputy had to go off of the initial information given until an investigation provided further details.
The fact that the piece of shit Ben Crump is out front on this thing also does no favors, Crump is a damned blood thirsty money hungry turd who loves to lie about situations to whip up public furvor. He's lightning fast to vilify police trying to get a big payout. I doubt he gives a damn about any of the "victims" he represents, only how many more zeros he can add to his wallet.
This wasn't a race thing - this was just a shitty situation all around.
Mostly true - but there are times they can boot your door - "exigent circumstance" - but they have to be able to articulate that. Such cases would be if they hear screaming, or please for help, gun shots, etc. In this particular case, I don't believe that would've been the case - the deputy would've been standing outside and listening for a minute or two and would have had to hear shouting / screaming that would've indicated an assault in progress or similar scenario. But for most encounters you are spot on - no warrant, no obligation to open the door to let them in. If they enter without a warrant and cannot articulate an emergent need for warrantless entry, you're looking at a payday (if you survive the encounter)
Not checking to make sure you are at correct location is a dumbass, unforgivable, deadly blunder......happening far to frequently. It should be verified from top down. I hold ALL responsible from Mayor down to responding officers and in case of Sherriff's department the Sherriff on down....to include personal taking initial phone calls, or radio dispatcher if not a 911 call! Period full stop.
Johnny
Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
Willing to bet it will be a race thing within a week.
Also, I don't doubt anything in your post, but would you have any knowledge of how that deputy was trained and/or what the department policy says about engaging an armed suspect?
Texasgordo
TGT Addict
POS lawyer Ben Crump is the lawyer for the family of the airman so it will be made into a race issue.
Rights are Rights and are not contigent on responsibility, and are even there to protect the complete fucking retards. This guy had a right to be a compete fucking regard within his residence, that right was taken away be an officer ending his life
LEOs have an impossibly difficult job at times with their personal safety vs civilian safety in interactions like this, but a man's Rights within his home were violated, no matter the context, and I can't give this officer a pass. It sucks because myself in that officer's situation probably would have reacted similarly, but no right should ever be trampled.
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You can say that again.
I went in to this thread with the intent to say my piece and be done with it, so I intentionally breezed by those statements initially, but now I’m going to back up some.
Not only does ROE change due to politics, but even by mission set and even mission by mission. Sure, standing ROE - the inherent right of self defense always applies. But that’s about it when it comes to application.
I can recall more than a few missions where ROE on ingress and egress was different than during mission execution based on threats/risks, target sets, allied forces involvement, and other factors. All that to say that anyone comparing ROE to state laws and departmental policies on use of force and use of deadly force is comparing apples to walnuts. Makes a great salad, but entirely different things altogether.
Concur.
My statement is the same whether the event was in the past or the future. I don't care how LEO's (or anyone for that matter) think I should act in my home when I've done nothing wrong.
Aus_Schwaben
First to know - Last to care!
And another job with a different department unless they take medical retirement for PTSD as a result of the shooting.
Over on arfcom there are plenty of cops saying it’s a good shoot.
