interesting article re recent Austin shooting

[Texanjoker]

Interesting article about the recent Austin shooting of a CHL holder and instructor that ended up pointing his gun at an officer after refusing to disarm. The part I find most interesting are the chiefs comments. He was recently in Washington lobbying for gun control....


http://http://www.statesman.com/news/news/loca ... -of/nXhSh/

Amid emotional debates over whether tighter gun laws are needed in the wake of several shooting massacres across the country, an investigation into the fatal shooting of John Schaefer will look at what his mindset was when officials say he aimed his pistol at a police officer in March.
Schaefer called 911 on March 1 to report that he had shot and killed a pit bull that attacked him, officials have said, but he refused requests to put his gun in his home before officers arrived. When officer Jonathan Whitted got there and tried to secure the weapon, Schaefer drew the gun and pointed it at the officer, officials have said. Whitted then shot and killed Schaefer

more on website.

 

[txinvestigator]

link fail

 

[Bithabus]

Acevedo is a disgrace

 

[Acera]

link fail

Try this one.

Affidavit gives new details on fatal officer-involved shooting | www.statesman.com

 

[TheDan]

According to state law, the officer wasn't in the wrong in attempting to disarm the guy. Kinda wonder why it escalated to the point that it did, however. I can't believe a word that Acevedo says...

What exactly was the point of searching the house and seizing property? I sure hope the family gets that stuff back.

 

[majormadmax]

When officer Jonathan Whitted got there and tried to secure the weapon, Schaefer drew the gun and pointed it at the officer, officials have said. Whitted then shot and killed Schaefer

Unless there are witnesses who saw differently, I don't see what the issue is regardless of Acevedo...

 

[Rogue]

Seeing the gun, Whitted tried to handcuff Schaefer, the affidavit says. Schaefer pulled away and said, “Don’t do that.”

I'm not positive I wouldn't have the same reaction. The officer has no reason to try and disarm and or handcuff me on my front porch after I've in good faith called them out over a dog I had to put down. If the officer had used his words instead of his hands, that man would probably still be alive.




Edit: I know that's the wrong reaction to have, just saying that Schaefer isn't the only one at fault here.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

Sad.

 

[txinvestigator]

I'm not positive I wouldn't have the same reaction. The officer has no reason to try and disarm and or handcuff me on my front porch after I've in good faith called them out over a dog I had to put down. If the officer had used his words instead of his hands, that man would probably still be alive.




Edit: I know that's the wrong reaction to have, just saying that Schaefer isn't the only one at fault here.

Never been a cop, have you? I was, and plenty of people who "in good faith" (whatever that means) called the police became the aggressor and attacked. I arrested plenty of folks who called 911. Instinct and gut are powerful tools for a police officer. Sitting behind your keyboard, in the safety of your home, does not place you in a position to judge what the officer observed and sensed.

 

[Rogue]

Instinct and gut are powerful tools for a police officer.

Yes, and so are spoken words. Based on the affidavit, the officer went straight to detain and disarm, instead of speaking to the man to get a better feel for the situation.

 

[txinvestigator]

Yes, and so are spoken words. Based on the affidavit, the officer went straight to detain and disarm, instead of speaking to the man to get a better feel for the situation.

And you were not there to observe what the officer observed. Clearly the officer believed he needed to disarm. Based on the actions of the deceased, I'd say the officer was spot on. Waiting to see what the other person can do can get an officer killed. The officer had a "feel".

Again, I have BTDT. Judge all you want, you have absolutely no idea about that which you write.

 

[Rogue]

Again, I have BTDT. Judge all you want, you have absolutely no idea about that which you write.

Not even going to bait me into responding to that. Have a nice day.

 

[txinvestigator]

Have a nice day.

You as well.

 

[TX69]

Meh. Citizens are expendable.

 

[General Zod]

From the article, it sounds as though the officer - without a word and with no warning - reached out to attempt to unholster and take the victim's pistol. (I call him the victim not in assumption of innocence, but because he's the one who was shot and killed) Does this sound like good police procedure to you, TXI? A simple "I'm going to need you to put your weapon on the porch" wouldn't have been advisable? Was the victim supposed to magically know the officer's intent with no verbal clues? I have to be honest - if someone, even a police officer, tried to physically snatch a firearm from me without a word of warning or intent, I'd likely pull away and say "Don't do that" as well.

Or did you come away from the reading with a completely different interpretation - I'll admit, it's been a day or two since I read the article. Help me out here.

I'm not trying to badger, I'm honestly asking.

For someone who has complained about the cop bashing in threads like this, you seem to be adopting a "LEO's Do No Wrong" attitude which is just as bad. Is there any room in your opinion for the possibility that the officer involved here may have escalated the situation with lack of communication?

And either way, the APD's refusal to release the video/audio is...suspicious. As though they're afraid it may damage their version of events.

 

[txinvestigator]

I am far from "LEOs do no wrong" I abhor LEOs who act outside of their authority or abuse their power.

However, I WAS a cop. I know what it is like. I KNOW the media seldom reports events correctly and completely. And none of us were there to observe what happened. Many here seem ready to convict the officer with ZERO knowledge of what actually happened, what the officer knew or observed, or any idea of police work.

I would say if the deceased acted the way he did, the officer's thinking must have been right on. Sometimes perception is hard to detect without being in the exact same situation.

Many years ago, a cop was accused of murdering an armed suspect. The suspect was holding a handgun with his arm relaxed at his side, his elbow on his side and his forearm extended out a bit. The gun was pointed at the ground. Suddenly, the officer fired, striking and killing the suspect. People cried foul, just like here. However, the officer insisted that the guy was going to try to shoot him. There had been a news crew on the scene and filmed the entire thing. The video was played back in slow motion, and although hard to see, the suspect placed his finger on the trigger slowly and slightly began to rotate his wrist. Until it was pointed out, no one in the media or the public noticed that nearly imperceptible motion that told the instinct of the experienced officer that he was about to get shot.

I don't know what the officer actually did or saw in Austin. I can tell you that as a cop, had you pointed a pistol at me you would have been shot, no warning or talk. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

A man called and said he shot a dog. Did you know that is an offense? It is probably also an offense to discharge a firearm in the city of Austin. The officer arrives knowing at least one, perhaps two offenses have been committed. The person committing those is armed. Cops get shot suddenly all of the time. See the thread here about the cops getting shot on a traffic stop by an AK wielding man. An officer should not have to wait for incoming fire. Based on the totality of the circumstances, the officer thought it best to disarm the deceased. A person who did, in fact, subsequently point his firearm at the officer. Until I have facts that prove the officer acted unreasonably, my training and experience tell me he was justified in his actions.

Take a citizens academy from your local LE agency. Participate in force on force training. Take the role of a cop with rules and laws to guide you, and face as person who does not care about those rules and laws. Get yourself killed a few times, then let's judge. mkay?

 

[txinvestigator]

Meh. Citizens are expendable.

Are the cops?

is that comment supposed to actually mean something?

 

[Mic]

TXI -

I agree with you in this particular case that, based on what we know, the officer has not done anything wrong.
However, I feel like you're implying that if you've never been a cop, you cannot judge their actions. With this, I disagree terribly.
It is our duty as citizens to make look at the actions of the government and judge them and act to ensure that their actions are within reason.
While I have a ton of respect more for police officers serving their communities than I do the politicians who write the rules, they are both basically part of the government. Just like we look at the actions of a politicians under a microscope, we should do the same for our local government.

Remember, they all work for us.

In this particular case, a man has died at the hands of one of our government employees. Happens all the time, but most of the time the person was out doing harm to the world, so most of us don't look to hard at the actions of the officer. In this case, a man has died, who by all accounts was not out doing harm in the world. If there are any cases where we the citizenry should put the actions of the officer under a microscope, this is one of them.

 

[General Zod]

Thanks for the well-worded reply. I think the wrong impression comes from what (to me) seems to be your tendency toward brevity and the one line smackdown. That's not a bad thing (in fact, it's usually damned entertaining...), but it can kill nuance in replies.

The thing that keeps sticking out to me in this situation is that the officer made a grab for a holstered pistol - whether the deceased had ulterior motives or not, that's an alarming thing to have happen. While I would NOT under just about any circumstances point a weapon at a police officer, I would likely react to a grab for something worn on my person by pulling away and saying "don't". I don't think many would react differently. Was the officer justified in doing it? I don't know. But I would hope the sudden grab would not be SOP for dealing with a subject the officer wishes didn't have a holstered weapon if provocative behavior is not observed. Wearing a holstered weapon on one's own property is not illegal nor should it alone be construed as provocation or justification for deadly force. Did the subject make a move for his weapon before the officer suddenly made things physical? We don't know.

I believe if the video was released, a LOT of this speculation could be laid to rest. Hell, even the audio alone could help.

Now, I am aware that shooting a dog within the city of Austin (and, indeed, simply discharging a firearm) is illegal. However, going balls-out when dealing with someone who may or may not be aware they've committed illegal acts, and who has called for assistance, isn't always the way to go. APD's account of things is not reassuring, and their refusal to even let the deceased's family view the video before demanding an interpretation of the deceased's mental state and thought process is ridiculous. You point out in the other incident that close viewing of the video laid doubts about the officer's actions to rest. The same could happen here if the video backs up the official story.

I don't dispute that pointing a weapon at a LEO is idiotic and likely to get oneself perforated nicely. I'm also not saying a police officer must wait for "incoming fire" as you put it before acting. What I'm concerned about is the sequence of events that led to that point, and who it was that escalated the incident into bloodshed. I've met APD officers who were professional and carried an aura of trustworthiness. I've also met some (thankfully a minority) who were belligerent assholes who confused their badge with a license to do whatever they pleased. I have to wonder which group the officer involved in this shooting comes from.

 

[Texanjoker]

Yes, and so are spoken words. Based on the affidavit, the officer went straight to detain and disarm, instead of speaking to the man to get a better feel for the situation.

Affidavit's are not a full reporting of the incident. They are a document used to obtain a warrant of some type. They just summarize the facts for a judge to see if there is PC or not.