IS OC legal at the fair?

[fishingsetx]

411.2031(d-1), ... (b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally,knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H,Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealedor carried in a shoulder or belt holster, on or about the license holder’s person:
...

(5) in an amusement park

TXI notes the OP didn't mention "State Fair". But since it is coming up, my question is, given the Midway and all the rides, isn't the area going to be defined to be an amusement park? Just asking.

(5) in an amusement park; or
(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other
established place of religious worship.
(c) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
regardless of whether the handgun is concealed or carried in a
shoulder or belt holster, at any meeting of a governmental entity.
(d) A license holder commits an offense if, while
intoxicated, the license holder carries a handgun under the
authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless
of whether the handgun is concealed or carried in a shoulder or belt
holster.
(g) An offense under this section [Subsection (a), (b), (c),
(d), or (e)] is a Class A misdemeanor, unless the offense is
committed under Subsection (b)(1) or (b)(3), in which event the
offense is a felony of the third degree.
(h) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a) or
(a-1) that the actor, at the time of the commission of the offense,
displayed the handgun under circumstances in which the actor would
have been justified in the use of force or deadly force under
Chapter 9.
(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply
if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06 or
30.07.

Amusement park only applies if posted 30.06/30.07, and being someone mentioned it was government property, I'm not sure if they legally could post it anyway.

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[txinvestigator]

411.2031(d-1), ... (b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally,knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H,Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealedor carried in a shoulder or belt holster, on or about the license holder’s person:
...

(5) in an amusement park

TXI notes the OP didn't mention "State Fair". But since it is coming up, my question is, given the Midway and all the rides, isn't the area going to be defined to be an amusement park? Just asking.

no.

 

[txinvestigator]

(5) in an amusement park; or
(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other
established place of religious worship.
(c) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
regardless of whether the handgun is concealed or carried in a
shoulder or belt holster, at any meeting of a governmental entity.
(d) A license holder commits an offense if, while
intoxicated, the license holder carries a handgun under the
authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless
of whether the handgun is concealed or carried in a shoulder or belt
holster.
(g) An offense under this section [Subsection (a), (b), (c),
(d), or (e)] is a Class A misdemeanor, unless the offense is
committed under Subsection (b)(1) or (b)(3), in which event the
offense is a felony of the third degree.
(h) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a) or
(a-1) that the actor, at the time of the commission of the offense,
displayed the handgun under circumstances in which the actor would
have been justified in the use of force or deadly force under
Chapter 9.
(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply
if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06 or
30.07.

Amusement park only applies if posted 30.06/30.07, and being someone mentioned it was government property, I'm not sure if they legally could post it anyway.

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Doesn't matter...A state or county fair does not qualify as an amusement park.

 

[Bithabus]

Why did you post all this? "Amusement park" has a very narrow definition.

(f) In this section:
(1) "Amusement park" means a permanent indoor or outdoor facility or park where amusement rides are available for use by the public that is located in a county with a population of more than one million, encompasses at least 75 acres in surface area, is enclosed with access only through controlled entries, is open for operation more than 120 days in each calendar year, and has security guards on the premises at all times. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

(5) in an amusement park; or
(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other
established place of religious worship.
(c) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
regardless of whether the handgun is concealed or carried in a
shoulder or belt holster, at any meeting of a governmental entity.
(d) A license holder commits an offense if, while
intoxicated, the license holder carries a handgun under the
authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless
of whether the handgun is concealed or carried in a shoulder or belt
holster.
(g) An offense under this section [Subsection (a), (b), (c),
(d), or (e)] is a Class A misdemeanor, unless the offense is
committed under Subsection (b)(1) or (b)(3), in which event the
offense is a felony of the third degree.
(h) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a) or
(a-1) that the actor, at the time of the commission of the offense,
displayed the handgun under circumstances in which the actor would
have been justified in the use of force or deadly force under
Chapter 9.
(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply
if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06 or
30.07.

Amusement park only applies if posted 30.06/30.07, and being someone mentioned it was government property, I'm not sure if they legally could post it anyway.

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[fishingsetx]

Doesn't matter...A state or county fair does not qualify as an amusement park.

Why did you post all this? "Amusement park" has a very narrow definition.

(f) In this section:
(1) "Amusement park" means a permanent indoor or outdoor facility or park where amusement rides are available for use by the public that is located in a county with a population of more than one million, encompasses at least 75 acres in surface area, is enclosed with access only through controlled entries, is open for operation more than 120 days in each calendar year, and has security guards on the premises at all times. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

I understand it is not an amusement park. I was making the point that even if it was, it would not be illegal to carry unless posted. Section (i) was left out of all of the posts above mine which led me to believe the poster thought amusement parks were off limits by statute.

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[sdismukes]

I understand it is not an amusement park. I was making the point that even if it was, it would not be illegal to carry unless posted. Section (i) was left out of all of the posts above mine which led me to believe the poster thought amusement parks were off limits by statute.

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That's what I was thinking. Very observant. Like many, I suspect, wading through paragraph after paragraph to specify where, what 'where' even means, what 'what' means, takes longer than my ADHD allows. I did think pert-much anything that has a Ferris wheel or a midway or cheesy rides is an 'amusement park'.

This is a huge part of why posts from fishingsetx and TXI , and other guys who DO have the wiring to read and comprehend this stuff, plus share it with us, are so valuable to the rest of us and this forum.


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[ussoldier1984]

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought you were not allowed to carry into a ticketed event? Isn't a fair a ticketed event where you have to pay to get in? Sorry if I am wrong. I might be thinking of a different state.

 

[fishingsetx]

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought you were not allowed to carry into a ticketed event? Isn't a fair a ticketed event where you have to pay to get in? Sorry if I am wrong. I might be thinking of a different state.

Texas law says nothing about a ticketed event. I don't know about other states.

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[vmax]

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought you were not allowed to carry into a ticketed event? Isn't a fair a ticketed event where you have to pay to get in? Sorry if I am wrong. I might be thinking of a different state.

if that were true then you couldn't carry at a movie theater
What state is that from?

 

[ussoldier1984]

if that were true then you couldn't carry at a movie theater
What state is that from?

Honestly I can't fully remember it might of been north carolina. Or I am just remembering something wrong.

 

[locke_n_load]

From Texaschlforum:

[FONT]I recommend that anyone wishing to open carry at the fair this year either commit to concealing or make their point by staying home. It will take a court case to determine the final word on this, and I believe it could go either way. I feel it would be more productive to avoid issues this year and work with the fair on an open carry policy in 2017.[/FONT]

[FONT]Sgt Ford, who is over all LEOs at the fair, has informed me that the policy will be enforced. However, he also said that if you are arrested, it won't be for open carry. There are other routes to enforcement that don't include trespass under 30.07, buy are equally viable.[/FONT]

[FONT]I don't feel anything will be accomplished by publishing the recorded meeting, but here's their attorney's official opinion...[/FONT]

[FONT]Thank you again for being reasonable and coming to us with your concerns and questions. Also, I hope you and others will understand that the State Fair of Texas is trying to balance the interest of all patrons. This is by no means a full legal analysis, and I am providing this information in my capacity as the lawyer for SFT. It should not be taken as legal advice to you or any other person or entity. The basic legal rationale is as follows:[/FONT]

[FONT]1. Generally, any private property owner has the right to decide who can and cannot come onto and remain on their property. That right also applies to tenants who by virtue of a contract have the right to control the property. SFT leases portions of Fair Park from the City of Dallas. During the annual Fair, that includes the entire area where the Fair is held. During that time, SFT is effectively the property owner and so has the right to decide who can and cannot enter and remain on the property. [/FONT]

[FONT]2. Texas Penal Code sections 30.06 and 30.07 do not override those private property rights. Sections 30.06 and 30.07 merely create special criminal-trespass provisions applicable to LTC holders. They relate only to the issue of criminal prosecution under those provisions. They do not relate to civil-trespass issues or other Penal Code provisions. They also do not grant an affirmative right to LTC holders to take a gun onto any property that lacks a proper 30.06 or 30.07 notice. [/FONT]


[FONT]3. Another provision, Tex. Gov’t Code §411.209, prohibits governmental entities from posting 30.06 notices. Because that prohibition applies only to governmental bodies, it has no bearing on what a private landowner or tenant may do, even if leased property is owned by a governmental body. It also has no bearing on 30.07 notices regarding open-carry. [/FONT]


[FONT]4. Based on the above, a private property owner or a tenant in control of property may refuse to allow a LTC holder to enter the property with a gun, and may remove anyone on the property who refuses to comply with the private property owner’s (or tenant’s) rules while on the property. That issue is entirely separate from whether a LTC holder may be criminally prosecuted specifically under sections 30.06 or 30.07. Nor is the law any different when a tenant has leased property owned by the government.[/FONT]

[FONT]5. The recent Attorney General decision involving Erath County confirms the above points. There are two questions addressed in that decision. The first is whether a tenant leasing property from a governmental entity may prohibit LTC holders from carrying a gun on the property. The Attorney General answers that question by ruling that such tenants may do so. The second question is whether a LTC holder may be prosecuted under sections 30.06 and 30.07 for carrying a gun onto the premises. The Attorney General answers that question by stating that a court would likely conclude that a LTC holder could not be prosecuted under those specific provisions. The Attorney General did not, however, state that the absence of prosecution under those specific sections eliminates other enforcement mechanisms or overrides the right of a private property holder to ban handguns: “Nothing in the text of the statute itself nor in the legislative history suggests that the Legislature considered whether private entities that leased property from a governmental entity were required to allow the carrying of handguns on the property that they lease.”[/FONT]

[FONT]I hope this information is helpful. We know that this is an important issue for many Texans and we strongly believe that allowing concealed carry and prohibiting open-carry is a reasonable compromise that best ensures the safety and comfort of all Fair patrons.[/FONT]

 

[seeker_two]

So....sounds like DPD is going for the old "Disturbing The Peace" catch-all.....

....And determining whether a property is privately-owned or not should be easy.....who pays the property taxes?

 

[Renegade]

gt Ford, who is over all LEOs at the fair, has informed me that the policy will be enforced. However, he also said that if you are arrested, it won't be for open carry. There are other routes to enforcement that don't include trespass under 30.07, buy are equally viable.

And cops wonder why nobody likes them.

We have almost 2 decades of experience with carry on property owned by a govt, and the cops still want to enforce laws that do not exist, or in this case, find phony charges to trump up against you. Disgusting.

 

[PRE-K]

Curious how many fairs are held on private vs govt. owned property?

 

[Bithabus]

4. Based on the above, a private property owner or a tenant in control of property may refuse to allow a LTC holder to enter the property with a gun, and may remove anyone on the property who refuses to comply with the private property owner’s (or tenant’s) rules while on the property. That issue is entirely separate from whether a LTC holder may be criminally prosecuted specifically under sections 30.06 or 30.07. Nor is the law any different when a tenant has leased property owned by the government.

This is plainly incorrect.

[FONT=&amp]Sec. 30.06. TRESPASS BY LICENSE HOLDER WITH A CONCEALED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp](1) carries a concealed handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp](2) received notice that entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp](b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp](c) In this section:[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp](1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section 30.05(b).[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp](2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035(f).[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp](3) "Written communication" means:[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp](A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by license holder with a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (handgun licensing law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"; or[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp](B) a sign posted on the property that:[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp](i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp](ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp](iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp](d) An offense under this section is a Class C misdemeanor punishable by a fine not to exceed $200, except that the offense is a Class A misdemeanor if it is shown on the trial of the offense that, after entering the property, the license holder was personally given the notice by oral communication described by Subsection (b) and subsequently failed to depart.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp](e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.


[/FONT]

As quoted above, 30.06 does not apply if the property is owned by the government. Does not matter who is leasing it. The language is simple and clear.

 

[locke_n_load]

This is plainly incorrect.


As quoted above, 30.06 does not apply if the property is owned by the government. Does not matter who is leasing it. The language is simple and clear.

Agreed. Right now, according to the AG, the private entity could post signage, but it would not be enforceable against an LTC holder.

I know Cotton at CHL forum has some push with legislature, is there anyone that we have here who is involved with the Texas Legislative process? I have a 46.035 cleanup/remove prohibited places bill that I want to submit.

 

[jrbfishn]

Why not talk to your local legislators?

sent from an idgit coffeeholic

 

[locke_n_load]

Why not talk to your local legislators?

sent from an idgit coffeeholic

You know, I used to live in Houston Houston, and all my reps were democrats, so I didn't ever try to bring anything up to them. I have moved the suburbs and just looked up my current reps, and its 50/50 for republican/democrat. So I will contact the republicans (one actually lives a few miles from me apparently). Thanks.

But if we do have any friends that can help push legislation, that would be appreciated too.

 

[jrbfishn]

Mine is retiring. Not sure who the new one is yet, but I be finding out and bringing it up.

sent from an idgit coffeeholic

 

[stdreb27]

I concealed last year.

At the fair. Plan on doing the same this year.

Just have your dl and your Ltc available. Because the DPD officer checked both.