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Is this a handgun?

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  • Vellcrow

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    mossberg_cruiser.jpg


    According to the BATF, the Mossberg 500 Cruiser pictured above, is a handgun and cannot be sold to people under 21 years of age.

    When did this change take affect?
     

    Vellcrow

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    WHere does the BATFE say that?

    I was reorganizing our overstock room at Red's today, and noticed that all the Mossberg shotgun boxes that contained pistol grip-only shotguns had stickers saying "ATF has classified this as a handgun and cannot be sold to people under 21 years of age".

    When I asked one of our managers about it, he said that ATF did rule these as handguns since they cannot be fired from the shoulder.

    If you can find me the exact definition that would dispute this, I would appreciate it.

    Here is a thread on THR about a similar situation: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=4376537

    On another site: http://forum.pafoa.org/rifles-42/47907-need-ask-few-qeustions-about-ak47-pistol-grip-mossberg.html
     

    Old Man of the Mountain

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    If the Illegal Criminal Conspiracy that is called the BATF has ruled that to be a pistol, then have they also dropped the 18" minimum barrel length?
     

    Vellcrow

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    If the Illegal Criminal Conspiracy that is called the BATF has ruled that to be a pistol, then have they also dropped the 18" minimum barrel length?

    THAT is exactly the question I want to ask the ATF. If it is ruled as a handgun, I can cut the barrel down as short as I want...

    Here is another thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-106559.html

    Here is a quote from another website:

    Shotguns with pistol grips and no
    shoulder stocks attached were restricted to
    persons 21 years of age or older if being sold by a
    Federal firearms licensee. This requirement is
    specified in 27 CFR § 178.99(b) and 18 U.S.C.
    922(b)(1), which states that if the firearm to
    be transferred is is other than a rifle or shotgun.


    Then the purchaser must be 21 years of age. The
    definition of a shotgun under the GCA [18 U.S.C.
    § 921(a)(5)] is a weapon ieintended to be fired
    from the shoulder.ld With the pistol grip in lieu of
    the shoulder stock, this weapon is not designed to
    be fired from the shoulder, and therefore is not a
    shotgun.

    AGE RESTRICTION REMINDER
    Licensees are reminded that certain commercially
    produced “shotguns” do not fall within the
    definition of shotgun under the GCA. Firearms
    such as the Mossberg Model 500 Camper,
    Persuader 500 and all other makes and models,
    which come equipped with a pistol grip in place
    of the butt stock, are not shotguns under the GCA.
    Therefore, they cannot be sold or delivered by a
    licensee to any person less than 21 years of age.
     

    txinvestigator

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    Shotguns with pistol grips and no
    shoulder stocks attached were restricted to
    persons 21 years of age or older if being sold by a
    Federal firearms licensee. This requirement is
    specified in 27 CFR § 178.99(b) and 18 U.S.C.
    922(b)(1), which states that if the firearm to
    be transferred is is other than a rifle or shotgun

    Then the purchaser must be 21 years of age. The
    definition of a shotgun under the GCA [18 U.S.C.
    § 921(a)(5)]


    (5) The term “shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

    a weapon ieintended to be fired
    from the shoulder.ld With the pistol grip in lieu of
    the shoulder stock, this weapon is not designed to
    be fired from the shoulder, and therefore is not a
    shotgun.

    AGE RESTRICTION REMINDER
    Licensees are reminded that certain commercially
    produced “shotguns” do not fall within the
    definition of shotgun under the GCA. Firearms
    such as the Mossberg Model 500 Camper,
    Persuader 500 and all other makes and models,
    which come equipped with a pistol grip in place
    of the butt stock, are not shotguns under the GCA.
    Therefore, they cannot be sold or delivered by a
    licensee to any person less than 21 years of age.

    Well lets look at that sections definition of "handgun"

    (29) The term “handgun” means—
    (A) a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and
    (B) any combination of parts from which a firearm described in subparagraph (A) can be assembled.

    I don't find in that section a definition of Pistol, only handgun. The Mossberg in question certainly is not a handgun.


    The law does not make that shotgun a handgun. However it IS Other than a rifle or shotgun; therefore it cannot be transferred to a person under 21. USC Title 18, 922(b)(1) states;
    (b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed
    manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or
    deliver -
    (1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the
    licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than
    eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is
    other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or
    rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable
    cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age.

    Just because it is not a rifle or shotgun does not mean it is a handgun.

    So, the ATF has NOT determined that the Mossberg is a handgun. Whoever put that sticker on the box jumped to a conclusion; a bad one.
     

    M. Sage

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    txinvestigator is right: It's not a rifle or a shotgun. Federal law only allows transfer of rifles or shotguns to those under 21 (from a dealer, of course). But it's not a handgun.

    Unlike a handgun, you can put a stock on it and swap it back again all you want. And you can swap out the stock on your shotgun for a pistol grip like that without running into trouble because something like that isn't a handgun.
     

    Vellcrow

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    I may be misquoting the "handgun" part on the Mossberg sticker, I will need to take another look at it. However, if it is not a handgun, then the under 21 age restriction should not apply.

    If it is not a shotgun, does that make in a AOW? If so, why isn't the $5 transfer tax being paid?

    If it is not a rifle or shotgun, does that mean the barrel can be cut down to any length, without any form of registration or tax stamp?
     

    Old Man of the Mountain

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    At Ruby Ridge, the FBI murdered some folks because they claimed that they had reason to believe that someone had cut down a shotgun barrel shorter than legal length.

    The persons murdered were not even suspected in having anything to do with that.

    The shotgun in question was actually in the possession of the FBI at the time, and was not cut down to an illegal length.

    The bottom line is always that the Washington Government and its Agents can not be trusted!
     

    txinvestigator

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    I may be misquoting the "handgun" part on the Mossberg sticker, I will need to take another look at it. However, if it is not a handgun, then the under 21 age restriction should not apply.
    Read my post earlier. I quoted federal law. Federal law says ONLY a rifle or shotgun can be transfered to a person under 21. It does not say a handgun cannot be tansfered to a person under 21, it says ONLY rifles and shotguns can be transfered to a person under 21. By default, since handguns are not rifles or shotguns they cannot be transfered to a person under 21. Since the Mossberg in question is not a shotgun or rifle, it cannot be transfered to a person under 21.

    If it is not a shotgun, does that make in a AOW?
    No
    If it is not a rifle or shotgun, does that mean the barrel can be cut down to any length, without any form of registration or tax stamp?
    No
     

    txinvestigator

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    :rolleyes:Nevermind. I thought our resident extremist wrote about Waco.

    That said, Weaver had a bench warrant for his arrest. When the Marshal's went to serve the warrant, they were fired upon. That is not legal. In fact, a Marshal was killed. There is you murder.

    I guess though, that the LEOs should have just apologized and left the area.
     

    mercot

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    I have nothing to add other than noting for the record that Ruby Ridge and the Branch Davidian were two separate and totally unrelated incidents except for the fact that the sniper who was accused of firing the shot at Ruby Ridge was also at Waco.

    It is also noteworthy that the warrant at Ruby Ridge was simply for a failure to appear.
     

    txinvestigator

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    I have nothing to add other than noting for the record that Ruby Ridge and the Branch Davidian were two separate and totally unrelated incidents except for the fact that the sniper who was accused of firing the shot at Ruby Ridge was also at Waco.

    It is also noteworthy that the warrant at Ruby Ridge was simply for a failure to appear.


    Yeah my bad. Our resident extremist was talking about Ruby Ridge. I guess thats what happens when people get tired of your anti-government rantings.
     

    DCortez

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    Yeah my bad. Our resident extremist was talking about Ruby Ridge. I guess thats what happens when people get tired of your anti-government rantings.

    Not to get in the middle of your lovefest ... but ... anti government rants and pro government rants, are still rants.


    Either way, every American should have their day in court. We are not a perfect country, but we sure as hell are better than the rest.
     

    Old Man of the Mountain

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    :rolleyes:Nevermind. I thought our resident extremist wrote about Waco.

    That said, Weaver had a bench warrant for his arrest. When the Marshal's went to serve the warrant, they were fired upon. That is not legal. In fact, a Marshal was killed. There is you murder.

    I guess though, that the LEOs should have just apologized and left the area.

    Really?

    I heard that on the way in the FBI snipers shot neighbors dogs to prevent them from barking, never announced their presence. The first shot fired by an FBI sniper at a human was at an unarmed man who posed no threat, and was not wanted, but was shot dead. And when Weaver's wife was shot dead, while holding her infant child in her arms, she was clearly identified and seen to be holding the child.

    But you are correct that it did lead up to the mass murder of innocent children at Waco, if that is your point.
     

    Vellcrow

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    Read my post earlier. I quoted federal law. Federal law says ONLY a rifle or shotgun can be transfered to a person under 21. It does not say a handgun cannot be tansfered to a person under 21, it says ONLY rifles and shotguns can be transfered to a person under 21. By default, since handguns are not rifles or shotguns they cannot be transfered to a person under 21. Since the Mossberg in question is not a shotgun or rifle, it cannot be transfered to a person under 21.

    No
    No

    Then what is it classified as? On the 4473, we check off only one of two choices, and that choice is called in to NICS...handgun or long gun. So which is it?
     

    M. Sage

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    Then what is it classified as? On the 4473, we check off only one of two choices, and that choice is called in to NICS...handgun or long gun. So which is it?

    There are more than two choices...

    But this would be a long gun, which is why it's illegal to simply chop the barrel down. It's just not a shotgun or rifle.

    Don't look for "clarity" from laws, especially gun laws. We're not supposed to understand them...
     
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