Israel and Hamas Conflict; The Politics and More

[rogerdmillerco]

When the Ukraine thread became too contentious and unwieldy, it was split in two. One new thread was dedicated to the politics, motivations, history, etc. behind the war. The other thread was devoted to hard news, i.e. where are the fighters and what are they doing? While some politics seeps into the news thread and vice-versa, the split has generally worked well.

The "Israel Attacked" thread has become just as contentious and unwieldy. I'm trying the same solution.

In this thread, feel free to talk about the politics of the situation and the history that led up to it.

I realize that in the Middle East, politics and religion are often the same thing. There is a rule against discussing religion on this forum and people should adhere to it. However, some small allowance will be made for acknowledgement of religious realities giving rise to political situations. This is not the place to assert you know what it says in the Talmud or the Quran and to point to that to make a point. Instead, a general acknowledgement that there are groups of people who hate each other and have occasionally done really despicable things to each other is enough. For the purposes of this thread, everyone will acknowledge that. Individual situations may be rooted in religion or may not but this is not the venue to tease out all the subtleties of the situation. None of us are scholars qualified to do that. Personally, I doubt such scholars exist; the situation is too complex for anyone to fully understand all the nuances.

And if those people do exist, they're too smart to waste time on TGT.

So let's talk real politics here and maybe even the attempts of folks like the MSM to cover up political reality. Say how you think things are and be respectful of the folks who will disagree with you.

"From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free!" For that to become a reality it means that every Jew living in Israel must die. I say "Enough!" Israel has a right to exist and should enforce that right with every means necessary.

 

[popper]

Typical political speak of war. [/MEDIA]
Won't dare show any stuff from WWII in Europe. Same kinda stuff went on.

 

[angel71rs]

This video is right on the money. His final point is the most important: the nutzis tried to cover up their crimes, hamas is proud of their crimes.

 

[Cool 'Horn Luke]

This video is right on the money. His final point is the most important: the nutzis tried to cover up their crimes, hamas is proud of their crimes.

Wow. Although I'd say Douglas Murray is stating what most of us already know, and most certainly feel, about the foundation of this conflict, he (Murray) is spot on, and IMHO this is a must watch. Piers Morgan, on the other hand, is just being his typical horse's ass, douchebag self.

 

[BigRed]

This video is right on the money. His final point is the most important: the nutzis tried to cover up their crimes, hamas is proud of their crimes.

Well said, Mr. Douglas Murray.

I will refrain from further comment at this time regarding "palestinians" and hamas out of respect for house rules.

 

[Paul2036]

Aren't most, if not all modern day conflicts and wars manufactured by the central planners? If you pay any attention to the MSM, it looks like they're all televising a poorly written script to get support from the masses.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

Aren't most, if not all modern day conflicts and wars manufactured by the central planners? If you pay any attention to the MSM, it looks like they're all televising a poorly written script to get support from the masses.

Welcome to the Forum!

 

[Paul2036]

Welcome to the Forum!

Thank you!!!

 

[leVieux]

<>

I was called to Jacksonville Florida to help some ex-U.T. Docs with their brain cases. Awoke in a Hyatt with limited TV selections.

I just watched “ABC” “News” tell the World about the dastardly IDF attacking a large hospital filled with Palestinian newborns on respirators.

But, never mentioning the, by now well-known FACT, that the main Hamas command center is built into the basement of that same hospital.

The reporter waxed eloquently about the World’s governments all calling for a cease-fire.

Never a mention about what Hamas did to so many innocent Humans a month ago, nor about the plight of some 240 Israeli HOSTAGES still held by Hamas TERRORISTS ! (The only HOSTAGE mention was in a paraphrased Netanyahu policy quote.)

This is pure PROPAGANDA BULLSHIT !

Yet, for so many U.S. Voters, it is their only ‘news”.

Our media just lie and LIE without any conscience !

leVieux

<>

 

[leVieux]

<>

I found a “FOX Affiliate” which added a clip of an IDF spokesman telling the World that the IDF has left one side of the Hospital open, with a large protected open road for “evacuations”; but it is Hamas who is keeping the patients & babies hostage.

GIGANTIC DIFFERENCE !

The TRUTH will eventually find its way out; but too late to help. . . . . . Then the drive-by media will be off to another set of LIES !

leVieux

<>

 

[HKaltwasser]

I watched a video yesterday of an Israeli man that took out 10-14 Hamas terrorists that were trying to take him as hostage. He smoked em all with a Glock 19. Me managed to use angles in his house and made quick deliberate shots. Saved his wife and daughter from massacre.

I've been searching for it to so I can post it, can't seem to find it.

 

[Aus_Schwaben]

I'm backing out of the Israel discussions, but want to say two things. First I appreciate all of your comments, ideas, links etc to this ongoing situation. I've learned, and am still learning a lot; and your contributions are much appreciated.

Second, and it's been on my mind since this all started, is the quantity of Palestinians massed at the southern border of Gaza. Soon, many will starve to death; their numbers alone make it impossible for any humanitarian effort to avoid this. Anyone who understands numbers/logistics might confirm my guess that even 100 semi's a day with food cant feed a hundred thousand + people.

Yet more so - along with the human tragedy - comes the real consequence of what this will do to international support for Israel, which now seems on a knife's edge, at best.

Prayers all around.

If the "muslim" countries really cared they could do their own version of the Berlin Airlift to feed the folks in Gaza but that would require both the will and the desire which seems to be lacking. Funny how there are more protests "supporting" Palestine in the rest oft he world than there actually are in the muslim countries. What do they know that the rest of the world does not?

 

[Darkpriest667]

Just since this is the political part. I want to tell you all I had lunch at my Cousin's 40th birthday yesterday. His wife, a lovely woman who I share a birthday with, is Palestinian, as is all of her family. As you all know or should I'm a Jew.


First thing, it was wonderful everyone was great and friendly and it was a good time. Second thing, they're all CHRISTIANS. A good deal of Palestinians actually are Christians. I think it's important to note like Afghanistan, like Iraq, like Ukraine, the public is being manipulated into getting involved in a war that 1) Isn't our business and 2) Isn't going to accomplish any long term strategic goals for the US.

 

[leVieux]

Just since this is the political part. I want to tell you all I had lunch at my Cousin's 40th birthday yesterday. His wife, a lovely woman who I share a birthday with, is Palestinian, as is all of her family. As you all know or should I'm a Jew.


First thing, it was wonderful everyone was great and friendly and it was a good time. Second thing, they're all CHRISTIANS. A good deal of Palestinians actually are Christians. I think it's important to note like Afghanistan, like Iraq, like Ukraine, the public is being manipulated into getting involved in a war that 1) Isn't our business and 2) Isn't going to accomplish any long term strategic goals for the US.

<>

”the public is being manipulated into getting involved in a war that 1) Isn't our business and 2) Isn't going to accomplish any long term strategic goals for the US.””

EXAACKERLY !

Why is this so difficult for some to see ?

<?>

 

[MountainGirl]

If the "muslim" countries really cared they could do their own version of the Berlin Airlift to feed the folks in Gaza but that would require both the will and the desire which seems to be lacking. Funny how there are more protests "supporting" Palestine in the rest oft he world than there actually is in the muslim countries. What do they know that the rest of the world does not?

Nothing. The 'rest of the world' also knows that Palestine is a total welfare state of over 4 million people. The difference between the other muslim countries and the 'rest of the world' is the former are unwilling to take on the heavy burden of total support - whereas the power-mongers of the latter sees more dependency on govt sustenance as the means to control...and stoking antiemetic fires brings them closer to that outcome.

Just my guess/opinion.

 

[cycleguy2300]

Aren't most, if not all modern day conflicts and wars manufactured by the central planners? If you pay any attention to the MSM, it looks like they're all televising a poorly written script to get support from the masses.

Who are those central planners?

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[Johnny Diamond]

He's busy trying to continue playing let me tell you who I am without telling who he is.

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[popper]

"

Canadian Jiggs McDonald, NHL Hall of Fame broadcaster, speaking in Ontario, says: "I am truly perplexed that so many of my friends are against another mosque being built in Toronto."

"I think it should be the goal of every Canadian to be tolerant, regardless of their religious beliefs. Thus, the mosque should be allowed, in an effort to promote tolerance."

"That is why I also propose that two nightclubs be opened next door to the mosque; thereby promoting tolerance from within the mosque. We could call one of the clubs, which would be gay, The Turban Cowboy, and the other, a topless bar, would be called You Mecca Me Hot."

"Next door should be a butcher shop that specializes in pork, and adjacent to that an open-pit barbecue pork restaurant, called Iraq of Ribs."

Across the street there could be a lingerie store called "Victoria Keeps Nothing Secret", with sexy mannequins in the window modeling the goods, and on the other side, a liquor store called Morehammered."

All of this would encourage Muslims to demonstrate the tolerance they demand of us.

Yes, we should promote tolerance, and you can do your part by passing this on.

And if you are not laughing or at least, smiling at this point, it is either past your bedtime, or it's midnight at the oasis and time to put your camel to bed.

 

[Cool 'Horn Luke]

Hell yeah! I'm all for it.

 

[DaBull]

I've been doing some research in order to figure out what I should actually think about Israel vs Hamas. I learned there is so much ideology and misinformation on both sides that the only way to determine what is true and how to proceed requires a better understanding of history (politics) first. Here are some interesting things I learned so far:

About 2000 yrs ago, the first people to settle the area now referred to as either Israel and the territories or Palestine--depending on which side you are on--spoke Hebrew and practiced Judaism, They called this land Judea. The Romans then conquered and colonized Judea, persecuting the Jews and, as an insult to them, renamed the land Palestine in honor of Judea's main enemy--the Philistines from Greece (they were like the Vikings of the Med--raiding and pillaging cities from the sea). Recall the Romans are the ones who crucified Jesus during this time of occupation. The Ottomans (modern day Turkey) later conquered the Romans and occupied this area, then the British once it and its allies defeated Turkey and its allies in WWII. During the time of occupation, the Jews were persecuted and many left hoping to one day return when the occupations were over. Some stayed and continued to be persecuted. Others converted to Islam (about 1500 years ago when Islam was founded) and stayed. After WWII (in 1948), the Brits created Israel from the remaining lands that it had under its control, and put us on the collision course we see today, as millions of Jews returned to their "homeland" and the Palestinians who were hoping to now govern the land themselvles now that they were free of Britain saw themselves as having to fight another occupier--Israeli Jews.

Despite having to respond to the attacks of its Arab and Palestinian neighbors, Israel's desire is to govern the area in a way that does not discriminate or persecute any people or religion. For example, there are Palestinians (non-Jewish Israeli citizens) who are elected members of Israels parliament. However, its official position is it supports a two state solution, where there are some lands to be goverened by a Palestinian government and some lands to be goverened by a Jewish government. Any solutions proposed so far have been shot down by the Palestinian Authority/Hamas. For example, years ago, Israel forcibly moved all Israeli citizens out of Gaza when Gaza elected Hamas to govern it. What we see today is Hamas used this time to siphon all the aid sent by the UN and EU that was used to make Gaza a model for a future two-state solution to prepare for the attacks of 7 Oct.

So I believe Israeli Jews have the strongest claim to the land. However, the Palestinians have claimes that are several hundred years less strong, and this counts for something. How do you get the Palestinians and Israelis to share governance and live in peace either in a single Israeli governed state, or a two state peaceful coexistance when there is a Palestinian Authority and Hamas that wants it all even if this means removing all Jews from the land?