Kel-Tec SUB 2000 for Home Defense.

[TheDan]

Now this is cool... http://redlionprecision.com/23512.html
Definitely the best option I've seen for adding an optic and keeping the folding capability. I wonder how well they hold zero?

 

[suhsjake]

I am hoping that Kel-Tec will adopt the upcoming RMR into 9mm.

Thureon Defense and Just Right Carbines also offer rifles in 45 ACP.

 

[matefrio]

Don't know how he did it but this guy modded a magazine into the front grips.
Major Pandemic - MajorPandemic.com: Keltec Sub2000 Modifications - Glock 17/19 format

 

[kfc903]

I bought a Sub 2000 in 9mm that accepts Glock mags in January, and it has proved to be unreliable with different mags and different ammo. I have experienced many failure to eject malfunctions, sometimes as often as every magazine. They say that it requires a "break in period." However, I believe that a firearm should work properly when it is purchased.

After 500 rounds, I was still having malfunctions. So, I sent it back to Kel-tec over a month ago and will most likely be selling it when I get it back. The Pros: Accurate, Inexpensive to shoot, Compact, Lightweight, Affordable. The Cons: Unreliable, Cheaply made, Shoots dirty (due to blow back operation).

From what I understand, some people don't have problems with their Sub 2000's. But, I wouldn't buy another one, and I definitely wouldn't recommend one for someone that needs to protect their family. A youth model 20 gauge shotgun is easy to handle for just about anyone. Its short barrel and short length of pull makes it compact in a house. And, getting shot with a 20 gauge is like getting shot with a .44 magnum handgun...twice.

 

[Texas42]

threads almost a year old.

:P

 

[matefrio]

threads almost a year old.

:P

It's a good thread :-)

 

[woodsong]

A youth model 20 gauge shotgun is easy to handle for just about anyone. Its short barrel and short length of pull makes it compact in a house. And, getting shot with a 20 gauge is like getting shot with a .44 magnum handgun...twice.

I agree -- while the Sub 2K is fun to fiddle with, it's no easier to maneuver than a shotgun. The mag release button is just in the right (wrong) place where it can be inadvertently pressed to release the magazine, too. I think the Sub 2K slide is extremely difficult to rack -- especially for a smaller or weaker person -- where a shotgun is a breeze to chamber. All in all, a shotgun makes for a better home-defense weapon.

 

[kabob]

Current offerings in .45 acp I'm aware of:

KRISS carbine (Glock 21 Magazines)

Hi-Point Carbine (Propitiatory Mags)

HK USC (HK Pistol Mags)

Beretta CX4 (Beretta Pistol Mags)

Auto-Ordance Thompson clone (Thompson MG Mags)

Few 1911 conversions for 1911 frames that turn them into carbines.

MAC "rifles"

Feather Arms - Still in business???

Discontinued

MSAR in 45 acp? don't know if was ever produced. They took Glock Mags though.

The Marlin Camp 45 takes 1911 magazines.

I wish, but no. I have a UMP conversion (USC with all UMP parts save the receiver and barrel) and the factory USC mag is a proprietary 10-rd single-stack unit and the UMP/UMP conversions use a different, proprietary mag (25-rd double-stack).

 

[TheDan]

...will most likely be selling it when I get it back.

I'll give you $5 for it.

 

[Texas42]

I agree -- while the Sub 2K is fun to fiddle with, it's no easier to maneuver than a shotgun. The mag release button is just in the right (wrong) place where it can be inadvertently pressed to release the magazine, too. I think the Sub 2K slide is extremely difficult to rack -- especially for a smaller or weaker person -- where a shotgun is a breeze to chamber. All in all, a shotgun makes for a better home-defense weapon.

I really doubt a 20" shotgun is no harder to maneuver than a 16" carbine. Just saying. The kel tec weighs 4 lbs.

The only thing that bothers me with this being a SD weapon is that it just looks so cheap. But what do you expect at that price point? Never fired one, but it does intrigue me. I'd agree that a 12/20 gauge or rifle caliber is more effective, but how many bad guys will bust down your door with armor on anyways?

 

[thunderstruck]

I'll give you $5 for it.

I'll do $10

 

[steve-o]

I'll do $10

$20 here

but seriously

I've been wanting a Sub 2000 for glock mags in 40, but haven't seen one for sale in a long time. Anyone know where I can find one?

 

[kabob]

Bullseye in Duncanville has a Sub2k that takes Glock mags but I can't remember if it was a 9mm or a .40. They were selling it for $3xx ($380?). You might want to give them a call. It was there as of Monday.

 

[Younggun]

I bought a Sub 2000 in 9mm that accepts Glock mags in January, and it has proved to be unreliable with different mags and different ammo. I have experienced many failure to eject malfunctions, sometimes as often as every magazine. They say that it requires a "break in period." However, I believe that a firearm should work properly when it is purchased.

After 500 rounds, I was still having malfunctions. So, I sent it back to Kel-tec over a month ago and will most likely be selling it when I get it back. The Pros: Accurate, Inexpensive to shoot, Compact, Lightweight, Affordable. The Cons: Unreliable, Cheaply made, Shoots dirty (due to blow back operation).

From what I understand, some people don't have problems with their Sub 2000's. But, I wouldn't buy another one, and I definitely wouldn't recommend one for someone that needs to protect their family. A youth model 20 gauge shotgun is easy to handle for just about anyone. Its short barrel and short length of pull makes it compact in a house. And, getting shot with a 20 gauge is like getting shot with a .44 magnum handgun...twice.

I WAS in the mindset that shotguns were HD king but have moved on from that now. A good pistol caliber carbine can allow 30+ rnds to be utilized quickly with very little recoil, descent accuracy, and a compact size.

On the other hand a shotgun of similar size will only allow for 5 shots max plus a slow reload time. Pumps can be easily jammed by operator error (practice can alleviate this but most won't do it) and I have experience jams on my rem 1100 from not quite pushing the shell far enough while reloading and having it pop out of the tube above the ''ramp'' and below the bolt which required disassembly.

Even a 20ga youth model with any resonable HD load will have much more recoil than the carbine.

Shotguns do have a place in HD(IMO) but I don't feel they are well suited as the primary HD weapon.

This is from someone who still keeps an 18.5'' mossberg 500 loaded and ready at all times, I am not against the shotty, just think it has certain limitations.

 

[kabob]

Agreed. I have my UMP and my Sig P220 loaded and ready to go for home defense.

 

[Ghostrider13]

Meant to ask about terminal ballistics of pistol ammo in longer barrel, but after some googling found this useful resource that pretty much made my original question meaningless - BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: 9mm Luger Results

 

[woodsong]

I really doubt a 20" shotgun is no harder to maneuver than a 16" carbine. Just saying.

A Kel-Tec Sub 2K isn't going to do you much good at 16" -- it's only 16" if you have it folded in half for storage or transport. Unfolded and ready for use, it's a hair more than 29" --the same length as a pistol grip Mossberg 12 or 20 gauge -- and only a few inches shorter than an M1 Carbine. Don't know how long an M1 w/Paratrooper stock is, but is probably shorter than the Kel-Tec. An underfolded stock AK is definitely shorter than a Sub-2K.

If you want short, then why use a 9mm Sub 2K in the first place? Just use a pistol.

If you want "oomph", then a shotgun will do you better than the Sub 2K. If you want capacity or maneuverability (assuming 8 rounds of 12 gauge won't solve the problem), then consider a pistol.

True, the ballistics of a Sub 2K with a 16" barrel reach the optimum for a 9mm round -- but still far way short of a shotgun. The increased sight radius is a plus for longer distances -- but is moot for home defense ranges.

Again, i'm not knocking the Sub 2K (even though the magazines tend to fall out very easily) -- it's fun to plink with. But, I don't think it's the best tool for home defense.

 

[steve-o]

Bullseye in Duncanville has a Sub2k that takes Glock mags but I can't remember if it was a 9mm or a .40. They were selling it for $3xx ($380?). You might want to give them a call. It was there as of Monday.

Thanks for the info. I called and its set up for 9mm, glock mags. I'm looking for the 40s+w glock setup.

 

[kfc903]

I haven't seen anybody get shot, but from what I hear, the ones that get shot with shotguns and rifles (not pistol chambered ones) don't go far. And I want an intruder to leave me alone NOW. Shotguns and rifles>pistol carbines and pistols. Recoil isn't really a concern of mine. On the subject of capacity, I don't plan on missing from 10 yards away, and home invasions involving more than 2 or 3 bad guys are pretty rare.

 

[kfc903]

Meant to ask about terminal ballistics of pistol ammo in longer barrel, but after some googling found this useful resource that pretty much made my original question meaningless - BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: 9mm Luger Results

115 grain Remington UMC
9mm Carbine=1232fps-16 in barrel
9mm pistol=1048fps-3inch barrel

Pistol (115X1048^2)/450400=280ft. lbs
Carbine (115X1232^2)/450400=388ft. lbs