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  • 35Remington

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    The other Lone Survivor thread got locked down, so I'll post my thoughts here.

    We saw it tonight. I couldn't help but feel like the correct application of six zip ties would have caused no movie to ever be made, and no American lives lost.

    Tomorrow I'll check back in and see if anyone is picking up what I'm laying down.
     

    ROGER4314

    Been Called "Flash" Since I Was A Kid!
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    Jul 11, 2009
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    It was a mistake to let those three goat herders go. Remember when one of our guys said..."How did they get here so fast?" or words to that effect. The mountains are the Taliban's home turf. That's where they live and how they live so it's no surprise that armed men returned so quickly. So they saved three of the enemy at a cost of three of our own and STILL didn't accomplish the mission of putting a dangerous terrorist out of action. Further, a chopper full of rescue troops crashed because of that decision.

    The knowledge that the target was present and reachable should have been top priority. Did you see the way the goat herders looked at the US guys? There was no mistaking what side they were on. I'm sorry but that pissed me off. That is the typical cluster F that happens when civilian politicians determine what the rules of engagement are.

    Contrast this incident to the action where Osama Bin Laden was killed. People got in the way then, too but the mission came first. If they were hostile or posed a threat.......adios!

    Flash
     

    txinvestigator

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    It was a mistake to let those three goat herders go. Remember when one of our guys said..."How did they get here so fast?" or words to that effect. The mountains are the Taliban's home turf. That's where they live and how they live so it's no surprise that armed men returned so quickly. So they saved three of the enemy at a cost of three of our own and STILL didn't accomplish the mission of putting a dangerous terrorist out of action. Further, a chopper full of rescue troops crashed because of that decision.

    The knowledge that the target was present and reachable should have been top priority. Did you see the way the goat herders looked at the US guys? There was no mistaking what side they were on. I'm sorry but that pissed me off. That is the typical cluster F that happens when civilian politicians determine what the rules of engagement are.

    Contrast this incident to the action where Osama Bin Laden was killed. People got in the way then, too but the mission came first. If they were hostile or posed a threat.......adios!

    Flash


    Two different missions, two different set of circumstances. Cannot compare. And isn't it nice how hindsight is 20/20?

    The SEALS did what they had to do. The movie and the book (quite a bit better) covered why they didn't tie them up. The ROE did not alloy them to kill the herders.

    Of course, I am no SEAL, so I tend to trust those who have actually BTDT.
     

    vmax

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    the decision was based in part, on the threat of going to prison if the bodies were found, don't know if that was in the book or not
     

    RACER X

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    Since this thread is pragmatic about the mission, here's some stuff from another forum, sounds like the guy knows a little more then the average bear

    Hate to say it (really I do), but it must be said that it'd be a better story if it were entirely true. Kinda like WWF, I could enjoy it more if they'd just come out from the get-go and admit that it was fiction.

    No disrespect meant to the SEALS lost, by any means. I don't wanna see anyone KIA, or messing up OPSEC in regards to the operation. But if you're going to make a movie about it, the spoiler's out at this point and I can't imagine the SEALS are having a whole lotta recruiting troubles these days. We all know they're not having morale issues.. So it's blatently turned into an ego thing. They don't want to admit they made a mistake out of cockiness. To take it a step further, not only do they not want to admit their mistake, they want to shout a largely bullshit story from the rafters and hire the big names in Hollywood to broadcast it across the nation.

    Even this, tacky, but forgivable in my opinion. However, not a single fuckin mention of the 2/3 and 3/3 Marines who were lost in combat in the area and operated that AO for months prior to the SEALS coming in, flexing their ego, and not listening to the good advice of the Marines who told them to cool their shit for a moment and listen to their previous experience in operation of the Kunar Province. Guess the regular ass Marines weren't high speed enough to be listed anywhere, in the book, previous interviews, or the movie.

    And he goes on to say

    Pretty much the entire thing. They essentially "stole," the mission, from the Marines operating there at the time. Fine, that's business when dealing with chain of command. The original operation "Stars," was slated to be kicked off by 6 Scout Recon guys. 4 Recon observers and 2 assaulters to babysit and provide security just in case, oh, something like this happened. The SEALS took the mission, ignored the intel, trimmed the squad size, took no one as security, and shuffled the original Op-Star's team, to QRF and then ultimately to the QRF of the later named SEALS/Special Forces QRF team. The original team and guys who had muddy boots in the AO, were shuffled to 3rd string.

    The size of the village they were observing was tiny. In fact, the original AAR by Marcus Luttrell stated that they were ambushed by 20-35 enemy forces. Later, in the book (after the story was given to a military fiction writer), it's reported they faced a fireteam of 200 people. The technology used by the Marines is classified, but it's been determined to be a group of 8-10 guys who ambushed them including Shah himself. Throwing out evidence that can't directly be proven, the village they were observing was physically not large enough to support a troop that size. In fact, it's been said that even the original low-ball number of 20 would have been a stretch.

    Many sources have listed Ahmad Shah as a High Value Target, but he wasn't even a Medium Value Target at the time. Only a person of high opportunity. Essentially someone who potentially had the funds available to pay more forces to join his team and fight for the insurgency. It's the reasoning behind the tactic of using 2 cameras as they assault the SEALS, it makes the force look physically larger than it really is. Observers who later view the video, don't realize they're watching the same fella's trudging down the mountain, the force looks larger, which means it's assumed that the financial backing is greater in hopes to recruit others to "sign up," to fight for Shah's forces.

    The operation was originally planned, simply to stabilize the area for upcoming elections. The theory was that 1 terrorist could mess up the entire election and they wanted a stable area to hold the elections in. Eliminating Shah meant the money went away, and once it did, so did the opposition forces they were facing. Once they leave, the area would have supposedly been deemed stabilized.

    There are more specific details I can list, about things that don't add up. But I don't wanna ruin it for anyone who plans on seeing the movie or reading the book.

    Lastly

    To clarify, I should add, yes there is a movie filmed from Shah's side as they assault the SEALS. Liveleak has it, and it's easily found if that's your thing. Some people don't at all want to see the horror in war, some people want to view it as a source of motivation.

    I watched it and it made my blood boil, so if seeing dead American forces being robbed and pillaged isn't your thing don't go searching for it. If it is, don't say I didn't warn you. I don't know how someone as an American could watch it and not be seething afterwards. But, maybe there are others more forgiving than I.

    On a better note: last weekends project. Desert Cam'd the 6.5 Grendel. View attachment 240777
     
    Last edited:

    35Remington

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    Ok, well it looks like no one else is thinking what I was thinking. 6 zip ties. You tie those 3 dudes to each other. Back to back. They can still walk home, but it's gonna take 10x the time. Duct tape over the mouth if you want to cut their communication ability.

    Wanna slow them down even more? Tie them all to a goat as well. They get home, aren't dead, and you didn't break the law or kill an unarmed civilian.

    In the meantime, you carry out your mission.

    Seriously, if they'd done that, I don't think there would have been a movie call Lone Survivor.
     

    Texasjack

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    What has changed with warfare is the psychological attacks that can be carried out with the world media. You can't play the "hearts-and-minds" game when Al Jazzera is broadcasting video of the unarmed goat herders you killed.

    I remember talking to a Marine who had served in the South Pacific during WWII. He said that that stuff about the Japanese never surrendering was just propaganda. Plenty surrendered, but nobody was about to parade captives across the island with snipers, mines, and hidden bunkers. The press of the day wasn't siding with the enemy and the reality that "War is all hell." was obvious and understood.

    The asshats in Washington think they can successfully fight a limited war with long, elaborate sets of rules - kinda like a big, expensive board game - and win the hearts and minds of the indigent folks while causing the bad guys to see the error of their ways and repent. To this point in history, this strategy has never worked and there are no indications that it will ever work. But since the bureaucrats have nothing to lose (in fact, they make a nice profit from war), they will continue to expend the lives of the loyal, hard working guys like those Seals.
     

    ROGER4314

    Been Called "Flash" Since I Was A Kid!
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    1   0   0
    Jul 11, 2009
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    East Houston
    The asshats in Washington think they can successfully fight a limited war with long, elaborate sets of rules - kinda like a big, expensive board game - and win the hearts and minds of the indigent folks while causing the bad guys to see the error of their ways and repent.

    +10!

    Our troops should not go deep into enemy territory with one hand tied behind their back. You don't need to BE a Seal to recognize that as a way to waste some damned good men.

    Flash
     
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