MINIMUM DEFENSIVE CARRY CALIBER

[1911'S 4 Me]

When did hollow points come about? Round nose, fmj, and ball have killed many long before.

 

[zackmars]

When did hollow points come about? Round nose, fmj, and ball have killed many long before.

1890's iirc.

 

[General Zod]

Thats mostly referring to this post


Hitting a vital organ is the most important part of the equation.

Everyone uses JHP's now because it does offer an advantage. Not a huge one, but enough of one to justify their adoption. Regardless if it's JHP or FMJ, its a handgun. Not a shotgun, not a rifle. It will poke holes. To have those holes do anything, you either hit the T zone or the heart.

The brain, heart, and spine aren't the only vital organs. Shooting center mass rather than trying for a head shot will give you a better likelihood of a hit on something important no matter what you're shooting with. Trying to hit the spine is a bit much as well - but nowhere in my reply did I say that hitting organs was unimportant.

 

[zackmars]

The brain, heart, and spine aren't the only vital organs. Shooting center mass rather than trying for a head shot will give you a better likelihood of a hit on something important no matter what you're shooting with. Trying to hit the spine is a bit much as well - but nowhere in my reply did I say that hitting organs was unimportant.

Well then my bad, i took that post to mean that you were saying that JHP's made up for an otherwise ineffective shot

 

[General Zod]

Well then my bad, i took that post to mean that you were saying that JHP's made up for an otherwise ineffective shot

Definitely not my intention. Just pointing out that thinking you're going to nail a headshot under stress with someone trying to kill you is unlikely at best. Same with a clean shot through the heart or a shot to the spine. Center mass, and with the ammo that will give you the biggest advantage is a much better strategy.

 

[oldag]

It's not all that more destructive. Remember, it's a handgun round. It's a third place looser that's only accepted because it means you can have a smaller gun.

There's plenty of cases of one stop shots with FMJ's and plenty of cases of guys taking dozens of rounds of gold dots, HST's etc. This is because you need to hit a vital organ to have any meaningful chance to stop the threat. A 9mm FMJ that hits the heart is going to do far more than a 9mm hst in the shoulder blade.

You can't simply bring it down to overall damage, its about dealing damage to the few important bits where the damage has any affect. Yes a JHP will do more damage, but it still has to hit a vital organ.

Winchester Ranger T in .45 opens up to nearly 1" diameter. That is a very large difference in diameter and area compared to ball.

And you do not necessarily have to incapacitate someone in terms of physiology. The physical pain and emotional shock will stop most (not all). Larger wound channel means more nerves screaming and greater chance of hitting something important. Probability is improved.

A rifle is not magic. Hydrostatic shock does not affect a large area either.

 

[zackmars]

Winchester Ranger T in .45 opens up to nearly 1" diameter. That is a very large difference in diameter and area compared to ball.

And you do not necessarily have to incapacitate someone in terms of physiology. The physical pain and emotional shock will stop most (not all). Larger wound channel means more nerves screaming and greater chance of hitting something important. Probability is improved.

A rifle is not magic. Hydrostatic shock does not affect a large area either.

It's not all that large when you realize the base round is almost .5" anyways.

It's also not that large when you look at how poorly marksmanship fairs when put under even the most minor of stresses.

Psychological stops certainly happen, but thats a very difficult thing to measure. Lots of stories involving .357 magnum causing people to freak out and surrender despite not even getting hit.

Compared to pistols, rifles practically are magic. Hydrostatic shock means an often smaller/lighter bullet is able to cause comparatively devastating wounds.

Its why when people actually know ahead of time that they will need to shoot something, they take a rifle.

 

[General Zod]

Its why when people actually know ahead of time that they will need to shoot something, they take a rifle.

For me that reason is longer sight radius and better chance of getting that first hit. YMMV.

 

[zackmars]

For me that reason is longer sight radius and better chance of getting that first hit. YMMV.

Thats part of it, but PCC's and SMG's are all but forgotten now, and nearly everyone is now using short 5.56's or .300's

 

[seeker_two]

Definitely not my intention. Just pointing out that thinking you're going to nail a headshot under stress with someone trying to kill you is unlikely at best. Same with a clean shot through the heart or a shot to the spine. Center mass, and with the ammo that will give you the biggest advantage is a much better strategy.

Depends on the person and the situation. If you're in a close-in fight, a contact shot might be the shot you have. And I've met plenty of people who have the control to make those shots under stress....and did.

 

[General Zod]

Depends on the person and the situation. If you're in a close-in fight, a contact shot might be the shot you have. And I've met plenty of people who have the control to make those shots under stress....and did.

Yes, but assuming you're one of those people isn't a wise thing to plan around unless you've already been in the situation and know you can perform. Contact shots are a much more likely scenario, in which case once again you'll want the ammo that'll give you the most advantages.

 

[cycleguy2300]

I wouldn’t feel too bad if i was stuck with 124gr NATO in my carry gun. No it wont expand but unless they're wearing a IIIa vest, it won't stop.


I think people put too much emphasis on over penetration.

"Over penetration" is pretty muchba non-issue in handgun ammo.

The ultimate goal is not to transfer energy etc, but to create a hole that strikes and damages CNS or major blood vessels. *IF* an expanding bullet can reliably penetrate deep enough, great, but FMJ will penetrate deeper and the expansion of a bullet does not significantly increase the total would volume and compromises the ability to get to good stuff in some situations, which are typically more edge case...

For a given volume of permanent would cavity, I will take a deeper hole over a wider narrower one, simply because hamdgun ammo is MARGINALLY EFFECTIVE at best after going through a layere or two of clothes, then fat, muscle and bones to get to the good stuff like heart, lungs, liver, spine... head shots are a little different, but not much.

I'd lean towards my Speer GD, but I wouldn't hesitate to use FMJ in a DF situation.

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

 

[cycleguy2300]

If you're that accurate under pressure or in a fight, then you and your faithful Indian companion can do a lot of good out in the West.

Also, humans are pretty resilient, especially when adrenaline is in the mix. Neat holes in the heart and brain don't always stop the show immediately.

Even if the heart is totally kaboomed, the brain and body will work for 5-10 seconds before the curtains fall

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

 

[Ingramite]

9 mini-meter is an incremental step to disarm the American people.

As soon as FJB touted it as a "lung blow out"my suspicion was confirmed.

 

[leVieux]

.30 sc is a dumb round designed to compete against 9mm yet s&w refuses to actually support it so it's already dead.

.327 mag died because all the rounds it's compatible with are all equally rare and expensive

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Well, that’s what I thought at first too. . . . . .

I even called the 30SC ‘’45GAP, Jr.’’

But now many are taking a second look and seeing advantages.

Folks are finally realizing that CC guns, range guns, & military/home defense guns are all very different.

I realized years, decades back, that the main characteristic of a CC gun is EASE of carry, as it must be present when needed, or it is completely useless.

We’ll see.

For now, we are trying to standardize on 9mmPB.

A .380 in hand is better than a brace of .44 magnums back home in the safe.

<>

 

[glenbo]

<>

Well, that’s what I thought at first too. . . . . .

I even called the 30SC ‘’45GAP, Jr.’’

But now many are taking a second look and seeing advantages.

Folks are finally realizing that CC guns, range guns, & military/home defense guns are all very different.

I realized years, decades back, that the main characteristic of a CC gun is EASE of carry, as it must be present when needed, or it is completely useless.

We’ll see.

For now, we are trying to standardize on 9mmPB.

A .380 in hand is better than a brace of .44 magnums back home in the safe.

<>

Have you seen this at grabagun? I've considered getting one.

Smith and Wesson Shield Plus Optics Ready 30 Super Carry 3.1" Barrel 16-Round Thumb Safety

The Shield Plus Optics Ready is the next generation in everyday carry. It features an 18-degree grip angle for a more natural point of aim and better recoil management, plus the new flat face trigger allows for consistent finger placement for accurate, repeatable, comfortable shooting. This...

grabagun.com

 

[glenbo]

The price on that Shield is lower than I've seen anywhere, but I haven't done much looking. It may not be popular, but a .30 hole is better than a .22 or .25.

 

[zackmars]

<>

Well, that’s what I thought at first too. . . . . .

I even called the 30SC ‘’45GAP, Jr.’’

But now many are taking a second look and seeing advantages.

Folks are finally realizing that CC guns, range guns, & military/home defense guns are all very different.

I realized years, decades back, that the main characteristic of a CC gun is EASE of carry, as it must be present when needed, or it is completely useless.

We’ll see.

For now, we are trying to standardize on 9mmPB.

A .380 in hand is better than a brace of .44 magnums back home in the safe.

<>

Both rounds are dead though.

.30sc doesn't offer anything over 9mm to justify the limited choice in firearms, and the increased cost in ammo. There's a few 1911's chambered in it, and there's a few s&w compacts, none of which are really all that impressive, and a hipoint carbine.

.327 died because the guns weren't cheaper, and while you could use a whole ton of other .32 rounds, most were not all that common and weren't all that cheaper than .357 or .38. At least since its a .32 revolver you have a pretty good chance that you'll find something that will fit in it.

 

[seeker_two]

.30SC could have been a great idea if they had done it right. They tried to make it a 9mm equivalent, and the recoil in small guns was indistinguishable from 9mm. If they had gone for .380 ballistics and less recoil in a smaller, hi-cap package, it would have sold like gangbusters with the CCW crowd.

 

[leVieux]

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Actually, I’ve been told the bullet travels some 150fps faster, penetrates better than a 9mm, and the diameter fits 50% more rounds for similar size magazine.

Plus, less felt recoil.

I have zero experience with either, so I asked those WITH experience to comment.

leVieux

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