NV or Thermal Clip Ons

[Jarhead0093]

Hey everyone. I’d like to get into hog hunting at night and I already have an AR-10 setup that I like and it has a PA GLX 1-8x24 LPVO on it.

I’d prefer to add a clip on rather than replace the scope so I can remove it easily for day time use. Does anyone have some suggestions in different price ranges?

Thanks in advance.

 

[FireInTheWire]

Get a thermal. Also get a dedicated hog gun. Easy grab and go setup.

The AMG rattler is hard to beat for the money

 

[Jarhead0093]

My AR-10 is a dedicated hog gun. I’ve shot quite a few during the day but lately they don’t hit the feeder until nightfall.

I don’t really have a desire to build out another hog gun just for night time hunting which was why I was hoping to add a clip on to give me night time capabilities only when needed.

 

[FireInTheWire]

Need @Double Naught Spy to jump in with his knowledge

 

[baboon]

I bought into NV long ago before thermals were affordable (they still are not affordable in my eyes, as the thermal I would choose is a Trijicon @ $9K). If you were to go the NV route you could set your rifle up with an IR laser. By wearing a NV device you would not be limited to having to raise you rifle to see whats going on. With a IR laser & say PVS 14 you are not even required to shoulder the rifle rather point with the laser & shoot.

Now if you were wanting to say drive around a property at night in a golf cart, ATV or UTV a PVS 7 is better for operating a vehicle.

 

[Jarhead0093]

I have 90 acres with 4 stands. 2 of the stands have feeders within 100 yards and that’s where I’ve shot 7 of my pigs.

So this will be a stationary setup and not very long range.

 

[baboon]

I have 90 acres with 4 stands. 2 of the stands have feeders within 100 yards and that’s where I’ve shot 7 of my pigs.

So this will be a stationary setup and not very long range.

While safari hunting in Africa I sat one night on leopard bait with my hunting buddy. In Africa they put a listening device with the leopard bait. The also mont a red light on a rheostat. The you hear the leopard you slowly crank up the red light. It works with leopards so it should work with hogs.

On another trip to a leopard bait my buddy had his PVS 7. He could hear the leopard but never see it with his rifle mounted PVS 7. He said it was very unnerving in the pitch black hearing what he never saw.

 

[FireInTheWire]

I have 90 acres with 4 stands. 2 of the stands have feeders within 100 yards and that’s where I’ve shot 7 of my pigs.

So this will be a stationary setup and not very long range.

Maybe a Vampire NV. It’s a great option for the $$

 

[paknheat]

I believe @Hoji recently added a thermal clip on to his hunting rifle.

Maybe he will add to the thread as to what he’s using.


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[Hoji]

I believe @Hoji recently added a thermal clip on to his hunting rifle.

Maybe he will add to the thread as to what he’s using.


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I did and am very happy with it. AGM Rattler

 

[popper]

Entrance aperature on that scope is too small for the rattler clip-on.
I got the Rattler hard mounted. Works fine during COOL days as well. Works @100F too but target gets blurry. If you have feeders with lights, a NV probably would work. Get a NV with CCD vs photo tube.
GK's friend got a hog at the feeder with green feeder light, RD on his 223. But he couldn't see the hog til it got under the light - big problem.
Feeder lite is one that comes on dim at dusk and gets bright when movement. With the Rattler I could just tell the dim light was on, not enough to see much.

 

[Hoji]

Entrance aperature on that scope is too small for the rattler clip-on.
I got the Rattler hard mounted. Works fine during COOL days as well. Works @100F too but target gets blurry. If you have feeders with lights, a NV probably would work. Get a NV with CCD vs photo tube.
GK's friend got a hog at the feeder with green feeder light, RD on his 223. But he couldn't see the hog til it got under the light - big problem.
Feeder lite is one that comes on dim at dusk and gets bright when movement. With the Rattler I could just tell the dim light was on, not enough to see much.

I have mine in front of a Leupold 1-4xlpvo. Works just fine on my set up

 

[paknheat]

I have mine in front of a Leupold 1-4xlpvo. Works just fine on my set up

Your shooting a lever action too aren’t you?


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[Hoji]

Your shooting a lever action too aren’t you?


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Yes. Marlin Dark 30-30

 

[Txhighlander]

I did and am very happy with it. AGM Rattler

I am intrigued, which AMG clip on model did you go with?

 

[Hoji]

I am intrigued, which AMG clip on model did you go with?

TC35

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Need @Double Naught Spy to jump in with his knowledge

Sorry to be late to the party. This isn't the thread for me as I am NOT a fan of clip-ons. I have hunted with clip-ons and done so with excellent success given having to deal with hunting with clip-ons.

Anyone that I have hunted with more than a couple of times using a clip-on has had issues, regardless of brand, including military gear. Why? 95% of the time, I would say it is user error and definitely 100% of the time when we tried to replicate the error, all indications were that it was user-induced?

What goes wrong? Good question. Several things. First and foremost is not getting the optic on exactly the same way for whatever reason. Maybe it was aligned in the picatinny slots wrong, in wrong slots, had debris in the slots, coupling was not secure, etc. Every single one of them had RTZ mounts with 2 or 1 MOA RTZ capability.

Here, it is important to keep in mind that when using a clip-on, you are not actually sighting at the animal in the crosshairs. You are actually sighting on a tiny near eye display inside the clip-on that is like a little tiny TV. So if the clip-on is just slightly tweaked to one side, you aren't really aiming where you think you are aiming.

The next problem I have seen multiple times with the current offering is the option for multiple rifle or ammo profiles. Simply put, they are on the wrong profile because they could not keep straight what rifle they were using or what ammo they were using. This can happen, of course, with this setup and people moving dedicated scopes between rifles and I have seen that happen. I am not a fan of moving scopes between rifles without verification.

In 100% of the cases where I have seen a loss of zero in clip-on scopes, the shooters did NOT perform any sort of verification shooting after attaching the clip-on to the rifle because....you know...it has a RTZ mount that has a X moa guarantee.

Clip-ons tend to be pricey for what they offer. You pay a premium for the clip-on compared to the same technology on a dedicated sight.

Clip-ons add front end weight to the rifle and in some cases, a lot of unnecessary bulk.

While I know they have a good reputation, I abhor the notion of a clip-on that only attaches to the daylight optic unless it is a heavy duty daylight optic. Most daylight optics were not designed with the idea in mind of hanging 1 or lbs of addition optic off the end of the daylight scope's objective bell. While it may work fine until you do that one thing that torques the clip-on and then bends the daylight scope.

Here is a pic from AGM of one of their scopes hanging off the end of a daylight scope.

Thermal Clip-On Systems - AGM Global Vision : Exceptional Visibility for Precision Accuracy

AGM Global Vision thermal clip-on systems offer quick, easy daytime scope conversion, superior aiming capabilities, and excellent target acquisition.

www.agmglobalvision.com

Unless that daylight scope is super heavy duty, chances are that without too much pressure and using only a finger, you can press down on the end of the clip-on and it will flex. That is a long distance between the end of the clip-on to where the daylight scope is supported by the front scope ring. This is not a setup that is conducive to field work.

Screw on clip-on scopes tend to maintain zero better because the threading decreases the margin for error over rail mounted clip-ons. However, having a clip-on supported by a rail will help protect against bending your daylight scope in a mishap.

Clip-ons, because of their positioning, are often a pain the butt to adjust. It can be hard to be on a hog, realize you are slightly out of focus, and then try to reach all the way to the front end of your clip-on and make the adjustments. So ergonomically, unless you are built like an orangutan with long arms, these can be a pain in the butt to adjust.

Why thermal over NV? Simple. It is way to easy to not see stuff with NV. I know there are NV fans, but one of the things NV doesn't do well is see animals in shadows (yes, there are shadows at night) and well camo'd animals. NV is better for positive identifications because it will see patterns on animals and maybe help you tell the difference between a coyote and the landowner's or neighbor's spitz, but otherwise, thermal is just better for spotting animals and if you don't have a thermal spotter, then you want thermal as your primary.

Night vision also will suffer from flash blindness. When you shoot, there will be a bright flash that will very briefly blind you (or rather the NV). If you are using an IR illuminator, you will notice your rifle will eject a lot of smoke and unburned powder. This all becomes a reflector for the IR light. In a good cross wind, this is no issue at all. On a calm night, you can literally have debris hanging in the air from anywhere from 1-5 seconds during which you cannot see well enough to make a second shot or even see where the hog ran if it ran after being shot.

FYI, even with Gen III+ ultra gated super duper NV, you will need IR illumination at least part of the time. That will be because there is no moon, cloudy nights, or that you are under the canopy of the woods in the shade from the moon and stars.

Also when using an IR illuminator, you will have issues of reflectivity not just with the gun smoke, but also with vegetation. Things in the foreground will be overilluminated compared to things in the background which may completely disappear from view.

With that said, for the OP's purposes and distances, I would go with whatever the smallest, lightest 384 resolution clip-on thermal I could find. That will save the OP money. All should be able to handle 100 yards just fine. It will handle more, but and if he is planning on hunting farther, I would go with a 640 resolution scope. I would NOT go below the 320/384 resolution threshold. Image quality will suffer too much, IMHO.

One last thing that I do not like about clip-ons is how much they reduce your overall FOV and they can do so even without the benefit of magnification (zoom) depending on the daylight optic. Your FOV is the FOV of the daylight scope's view of the clip-on's near eye display which is displaying the FOV of the clip-on. Plus, the more you zoom your daylight scope, the more the FOV is reduced. This is a no brainer as that happens when you zoom your daylight scope anyway, but the problem tends to be more pronounced when you start stacking optics.

So if you get a clip-on, thermal or NV, ALWAYS verify zero before hunting if you have changed the profile on the scope or if you have had the scope off the rifle (or the daylight scope off the rifle).

If I was in the OP's position and didn't want a dedicated thermal optic on my rifle, then I would go with digital night vision which would give me both daylight and night capabilities and with the money saved, buy a small, handheld thermal for spotting purposes. A rifle gets awfully heavy to swing around during the course of the night in order to scan your hunting area.

These are my observations and opinions. I have no qualms with folks using clip-ons. In fact from what I have seen, I think clip-ons may be the route to go for long range hunting at night (>300 yards). The combination of zoom capabilities between the daylight optics (depending on make/model) and clip-on (some of which have zoom) can make longer range shots easier. With that said, clip-ons simply aren't for me and my situation.

 

[Huntsman52]

What about PARD. saw one a while back and found them interesting for a NV clip on.

 

[Jarhead0093]

Sorry to be late to the party. This isn't the thread for me as I am NOT a fan of clip-ons. I have hunted with clip-ons and done so with excellent success given having to deal with hunting with clip-ons.

Anyone that I have hunted with more than a couple of times using a clip-on has had issues, regardless of brand, including military gear. Why? 95% of the time, I would say it is user error and definitely 100% of the time when we tried to replicate the error, all indications were that it was user-induced?

What goes wrong? Good question. Several things. First and foremost is not getting the optic on exactly the same way for whatever reason. Maybe it was aligned in the picatinny slots wrong, in wrong slots, had debris in the slots, coupling was not secure, etc. Every single one of them had RTZ mounts with 2 or 1 MOA RTZ capability.

Here, it is important to keep in mind that when using a clip-on, you are not actually sighting at the animal in the crosshairs. You are actually sighting on a tiny near eye display inside the clip-on that is like a little tiny TV. So if the clip-on is just slightly tweaked to one side, you aren't really aiming where you think you are aiming.

The next problem I have seen multiple times with the current offering is the option for multiple rifle or ammo profiles. Simply put, they are on the wrong profile because they could not keep straight what rifle they were using or what ammo they were using. This can happen, of course, with this setup and people moving dedicated scopes between rifles and I have seen that happen. I am not a fan of moving scopes between rifles without verification.

In 100% of the cases where I have seen a loss of zero in clip-on scopes, the shooters did NOT perform any sort of verification shooting after attaching the clip-on to the rifle because....you know...it has a RTZ mount that has a X moa guarantee.

Clip-ons tend to be pricey for what they offer. You pay a premium for the clip-on compared to the same technology on a dedicated sight.

Clip-ons add front end weight to the rifle and in some cases, a lot of unnecessary bulk.

While I know they have a good reputation, I abhor the notion of a clip-on that only attaches to the daylight optic unless it is a heavy duty daylight optic. Most daylight optics were not designed with the idea in mind of hanging 1 or lbs of addition optic off the end of the daylight scope's objective bell. While it may work fine until you do that one thing that torques the clip-on and then bends the daylight scope.

Here is a pic from AGM of one of their scopes hanging off the end of a daylight scope.

Thermal Clip-On Systems - AGM Global Vision : Exceptional Visibility for Precision Accuracy

AGM Global Vision thermal clip-on systems offer quick, easy daytime scope conversion, superior aiming capabilities, and excellent target acquisition.

www.agmglobalvision.com

Unless that daylight scope is super heavy duty, chances are that without too much pressure and using only a finger, you can press down on the end of the clip-on and it will flex. That is a long distance between the end of the clip-on to where the daylight scope is supported by the front scope ring. This is not a setup that is conducive to field work.

Screw on clip-on scopes tend to maintain zero better because the threading decreases the margin for error over rail mounted clip-ons. However, having a clip-on supported by a rail will help protect against bending your daylight scope in a mishap.

Clip-ons, because of their positioning, are often a pain the butt to adjust. It can be hard to be on a hog, realize you are slightly out of focus, and then try to reach all the way to the front end of your clip-on and make the adjustments. So ergonomically, unless you are built like an orangutan with long arms, these can be a pain in the butt to adjust.

Why thermal over NV? Simple. It is way to easy to not see stuff with NV. I know there are NV fans, but one of the things NV doesn't do well is see animals in shadows (yes, there are shadows at night) and well camo'd animals. NV is better for positive identifications because it will see patterns on animals and maybe help you tell the difference between a coyote and the landowner's or neighbor's spitz, but otherwise, thermal is just better for spotting animals and if you don't have a thermal spotter, then you want thermal as your primary.

Night vision also will suffer from flash blindness. When you shoot, there will be a bright flash that will very briefly blind you (or rather the NV). If you are using an IR illuminator, you will notice your rifle will eject a lot of smoke and unburned powder. This all becomes a reflector for the IR light. In a good cross wind, this is no issue at all. On a calm night, you can literally have debris hanging in the air from anywhere from 1-5 seconds during which you cannot see well enough to make a second shot or even see where the hog ran if it ran after being shot.

FYI, even with Gen III+ ultra gated super duper NV, you will need IR illumination at least part of the time. That will be because there is no moon, cloudy nights, or that you are under the canopy of the woods in the shade from the moon and stars.

Also when using an IR illuminator, you will have issues of reflectivity not just with the gun smoke, but also with vegetation. Things in the foreground will be overilluminated compared to things in the background which may completely disappear from view.

With that said, for the OP's purposes and distances, I would go with whatever the smallest, lightest 384 resolution clip-on thermal I could find. That will save the OP money. All should be able to handle 100 yards just fine. It will handle more, but and if he is planning on hunting farther, I would go with a 640 resolution scope. I would NOT go below the 320/384 resolution threshold. Image quality will suffer too much, IMHO.

One last thing that I do not like about clip-ons is how much they reduce your overall FOV and they can do so even without the benefit of magnification (zoom) depending on the daylight optic. Your FOV is the FOV of the daylight scope's view of the clip-on's near eye display which is displaying the FOV of the clip-on. Plus, the more you zoom your daylight scope, the more the FOV is reduced. This is a no brainer as that happens when you zoom your daylight scope anyway, but the problem tends to be more pronounced when you start stacking optics.

So if you get a clip-on, thermal or NV, ALWAYS verify zero before hunting if you have changed the profile on the scope or if you have had the scope off the rifle (or the daylight scope off the rifle).

If I was in the OP's position and didn't want a dedicated thermal optic on my rifle, then I would go with digital night vision which would give me both daylight and night capabilities and with the money saved, buy a small, handheld thermal for spotting purposes. A rifle gets awfully heavy to swing around during the course of the night in order to scan your hunting area.

These are my observations and opinions. I have no qualms with folks using clip-ons. In fact from what I have seen, I think clip-ons may be the route to go for long range hunting at night (>300 yards). The combination of zoom capabilities between the daylight optics (depending on make/model) and clip-on (some of which have zoom) can make longer range shots easier. With that said, clip-ons simply aren't for me and my situation.

Hey, can you be more thorough and not so vague in your response? Haha.

Wow, thank you for the insight. That is a very amazing amount of info and is truly appreciated.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

LOL, I can be long winded when it comes to high dollar decisions. I know what I like, but that may not be what you like & vice versa, so I try to explain in detail so as to help you with your decision.

Speaking of which, Huntsman mentioned the PARD line of products. I was remiss in not mentioning these. I am only familiar with their back end night vision clip-on (do they have a front end?). I have a competitor's (Oneleaf Commander) version and have looked at the PARD 007 version and they are very similar. My hunting partner has a PARD.

With these, you do NOT have the issue with having the optics completely aligned. Because the PARD/Oneleaf or other back end clip-on does not change the view of the daylight scope. If you put it on and it is sightly misaligned, your image may be slightly misshapen but when you aim at the bullseye at your zero distance, you will still hit the bullseye. If you misalign a front end clip-on is where you have the real alignment/zero issues as the bullet isn't apt to hit your bullseye.

I believe the Oneleaf is a knockoff of the PARD...one Chinese company stealing from another?

At lot of users DO like these back end clip-ons. They bypass some of the problems I noted above. Some people actually prefer the Oneleaf over the PARD, at least last year when they were virtually identical. This guy explains both pretty well. The PARD is more expensive


However, PARD has an upgraded/modified version that costs a lot more and has a laser rangefinder. Amazon product ASIN B0BS17LGLG
This new unit looks promising as one of the downsides to these units was the weird focus wheel under the middle of the optic. It worked, but was awkward to use.

With the old and new versions of the PARD and the old Oneleaf, the vast majority of the controls are right in front of your face as you look through the optic. I actually had a problem with my cap hitting the buttons. I did not find the button orientation conducive to active field hunting, but it was okay for the blind with a feeder at a fixed distance.

If you go with night vision, regardless of the time, and 100% if it is digital night vision, you will need to use the IR illuminator. The Oneleaf's was outstanding despite being so tiny and the PARD's is supposed to be good as well. However, I would suggest that unless being clandestine is absolutely necessary, don't get the 940 nm illuminator and get the 850. The 850 nm will have a visible glow at the light, but will shine MUCH farther and result in a much greater use distance for the shooter. Years ago, somebody did some testing and found that for the same power level (same battery volts/amps), 940 nm is about 2/3 effective as compared to 850 nm. I don't know that the ratio is the same today, but 940 still does not have the throw of the 850 for the same amount of power, but the 850 will give off a visible glow.

Will this glow matter? Maybe. A lot of coyote and hog hunters (including myself) have noted that when hogs and coyotes see the dull glow, almost like a cigarette glow in the night, they had no response. Some survivors, however, when bolt when they saw the light come on even at 85 and 100 yards (distances of my stands to feeders). So the 850 can be a problem.

When it comes to IR illumination, basically the higher you go with the numbers, the more you are getting away from the visible spectrum into the IR spectrum and most of the 940s don't even glow at the source. They look like nothing is there when you see them with your naked eye.

I was not real happy with the Oneleaf. It functioned and I made it work for me, but I felt it was a bit of a struggle to make work. My partner felt the same way about his PARD 007 (older version).

PARD seems to be a very popular option, particularly in Europe. It seems to be the embodiment of what the DIY guys were doing over there 10 years ago with their modified DVR cameras where they yanked out the IR filter and rendered their cameras mostly only useful at night and then taped, rubberbanded, and styrofoamed them into place behind daylight scopes and would use them for ratting and what not and were very successful. Check out this old school ratting video and the gear used....

What was impressive to me about the Oneleaf was the distance I was getting from the IR illuminator that was probably double what I was getting with a digital night vision scope before moving to thermal about 11 years ago. Here is the video I did for the Oneleaf and my only hog kill with it.


Jarhead, PM sent...